College Selection: A list of things that trouble and irritate me

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I've been browsing the "vs" threads that have proliferated recently, as they do every year. More than ever, I've been surprised and troubled by a lot of the advice given on these threads. </p>

<p>This is my list of things that trouble me:</p>

<p><a href="1">b</a> An over-reliance on rankings to select a college or promote a college**</p>

<p>Rankings can be a useful tool if used properly. If you have never heard of Sam Houston State and want to know roughly where it stands, consulting US News or another ranking is a fast way to get a vague idea of its reputation. For uncommon disciplines or fields that have only a few strong programs, graduate/department rankings may be of some limited value. Under almost no circumstances, however, should rankings be used as a determining factor when selecting a college. I have seen posters in the last week point to a 5 spot difference in the US News or NRC rankings and authoritatively state that they clearly establish College X as the superior option to College Y. The truth is that many colleges provide perfectly good educations, and a difference that seems large on paper is often imperceptible in reality.</p>

<p><a href="2">b</a> The dismissal of fit and too much emphasis on prestige**</p>

<p>To date, I have attended 5 universities and spent quite a lot of time at a 6th college (a LAC). I absolutely shudder to think that a student would pick any of these over another on the basis of prestige or a few spots on a ranking. The huge differences between them -- urban vs. small town, Greek life vs. none, cold and rainy vs. warm and sunny weather, residential vs. off-campus housing, to name only a few things -- have absolutely nothing to do with academics and everything to do with all the tiny, everyday things that go into your college experience. You will be living, studying, breathing, eating, socializing, and sleeping at a college for the next four years of your life. Are you REALLY going to choose based on what others think or some magazine thinks is best? Where does it end? Will you choose to live in a city after graduation based on a ranking of the "best cities" in the US? Will you buy a particular house based on a ranking of the "best neighborhoods"? Will you choose which TV shows to watch based on viewing figures? You owe it to yourself to realize that all of the CC top universities and LACs (among others) are fine colleges and that prestige is small comfort if you end up disliking your choice. Some people are truly happy in almost any environment, but most people are not. Do yourself a favor and pick the optimum fit for you; success occurs when you are happiest. You are in for a rough ride in life if you rely on external validation.</p>

<p><a href="3">b</a> Too much emphasis on the field a student thinks he's going into **</p>

<p>Many of the threads I've seen recently demand to know which of a poster's options are best for pre-med, anthropology, writing, and other such things. First, realize that most top colleges are at least adequate in most things they offer. This is especially true for staple programs like English, history, biology, etc. Second, keep in mind that many people change their minds about what they want to do. Oh, I'm sure many of you <em>think</em> you know what you want to do or are even "sure" of what you want to do, but I doubt more than half of you (if that many) will actually follow through with those plans. According to one study, 2/3 of college students change their majors at least once, and the average number of major changes is three (!). Many of you haven't been exposed to geography or epidemiology or advertising or any of dozens of other career paths. Off the top of my head, I know of a philosophy geek who switched to mechanical engineering, a pre-med neuroscientist who is now studying paleontology, and a music major now working as a military linguist. Did you know that only about half of those taking the MCAT ever apply to medical school? That's not even counting all of the people who drop out before that point. </p>

<p><a href="4">b</a> Dismissal of finances, faulty understanding of financial aid, and unrealistic salary expectations**</p>

<p>This is perhaps the most troubling of the lot. In the last week, I have seen people encourage a poster who likes both Columbia and USC to turn down a full tuition scholarship at USC for full pay Columbia, despite the tremendous hardship and subsequent debt that would result. I have seen people encourage a poster to pay full cost at Michigan over in-state UW, citing a difference in prestige and academic strength and clearly believing it the obvious choice. I have seen posters encourage students with a full ride to College A and $0 from College B to contact College B and ask for financial aid -- as if financial aid officers are genies in lamps that generously grant money upon request. I have seen posters encourage students to pay full cost at a Penn-caliber school over a large scholarship at Tufts or Wake-caliber schools, saying things like the academics are worth it, you'll have that distinction for the rest of your life, that college will pay for itself after graduation, etc. </p>

<p>Cost is not something to be thrown aside lightly. Merit scholarships to good colleges, with guaranteed summer funding and research positions, are nothing to sneeze at. Some graduates do come out of college making quite a lot of money. Others, including more graduates of elite colleges than you'd like to think, end up working at the local Starbucks while they figure out what's next. Saving money on college can open as many doors as attending an elite college. Having money for that top medical or law school is nice. Having funding for that master's degree in environmental science or public policy you decided to pick up is nice. Being able to travel the world after graduation or pick a job you like without having to stress about paying back a large stack of loans is nice. When you are making your decision, remember that the people who are encouraging you to select a particular school won't be paying for it. They won't be the ones scrimping and saving to put you through college or paying off the debt afterwards.</p>

<p><a href="5">b</a> A lack of objectivity**</p>

<p>This forum is intended to help students find and select colleges that are best for them. In many cases, this involves providing first hand information about colleges so that a poster can make an informed decision. Unfortunately, posters are increasingly confusing this with getting posters to matriculate at their alma maters at any cost -- regardless of fit or finances.</p>

<p>You chose your college because it is best for YOU. You liked its campus, its academics, its social scene, its location. Other students chose different colleges because they didn't like the same things you did. It's the way things work. When students ask for help on these forums, you must keep in mind that they are not you. They may or may not like a college town like you do. They may or may not prefer a single-sex college. Clamoring for a particular college without getting a good grasp of what a student is looking for - or without taking that into account - does that student an extreme disservice. All of the popular colleges on CC will have wonderfully intelligent and talented students come fall, and it is not necessary to shill for one to make that happen.</p>

2

<p>Great post.</p>

<p>I also am surprised at the way some applicants seem to apply to colleges solely based on rankings, get in to several, and then are truly puzzled about which to choose. It’s as if their selection process has been entirely rankings-driven, and they have paid no thought whatsoever to program offerings, atmosphere, location, cost, and other factors that are so much more important. Such a lazy, intellectually incurious way to choose an education, and yet so many of these kids have super stats! Where’s the critical thinking? Where’s the judgment and self-knowledge?</p>

3

<p>Hmmm,… I know a few parent posters on CC this year who shall remain nameless who could really use to read this thread if they have younger children in the pipeline…</p>

<p>Great post…</p>

4

<p>Bumping this. Since yesterday, I have seen:</p>

<p>[ul][<em>]Someone telling someone to choose another college over Dartmouth because there is “nothing to do” at the latter except outdoors activities.
[</em>]Numerous students saying they will worry about finances later and just want to figure out the best choice
[<em>]Someone worried that College X has gone down five spots in USNWR in the last few years
[</em>]Someone claiming that a top public is worth OOS cost but a top LAC is worthless.
[<em>]A poster utterly distraught at getting into an Ivy but not HYP.
[</em>]Two (and only two) posters clearly and firmly tell a student to choose a college other than that poster’s alma mater. Scholarship money was involved in both cases.
[<em>]At least four posters with the phrase “but X is an Ivy” when comparing colleges.
[</em>]Three threads dissolve into debates about prestige in Asia, despite the OP showing no inclination to work overseas
[<em>]Several threads dissolve into debate about prestige on Wall Street, despite the OP showing no inclination to work in any financial field
[</em>]At least ten posters whose college affiliations I have been able to guess correctly through recommendations and comparisons they’ve made
[<em>]Someone, an esteemed poster no less, taking umbrage at a lack of deference for her top university and lashing out by claiming a top LAC is known only because it is somehow confused with AWS and insinuating it provides a poor education
[</em>]Posters who often brag about how rigorous and demanding their colleges falling over themselves to talk about how much fun they’re having when students ask about the poor social reputations
[<em>]Repeated references to cross-admit results, as if the decisions of others have anything whatsoever to do with decisions now
[</em>]Eleven (!) posters telling kids to not bother visiting because one of the options is clearly the best choice
[<em>]Too many posters to count who simply provide a list of colleges and demand to be given information about them (have they done ANY research? why did they even choose them?)
[</em>]People with radically different top choices (e.g. Amherst and NYU) demanding to know which they should pick
[<em>]Several parent posters, who should really know better, who are entirely too enthusiastic or defensive of certain colleges (you can tell who the full pays are…)
[</em>]At least five posters with axes to grind meddling in threads by shooting down colleges in a student’s list simply because they don’t like those colleges[/ul]</p>

<p>Good grief!</p>

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<p>i think the point of this forum could be debated, but i like the post.</p>

6

<p>Love the thread. Agree wholeheartedly. I also have a hard time with all the “chance me” posts. Given the extreme subjectivity of the college application process and the many, many variables involved…how and why exactly does one 17 year olds opinion of whether you’re going to get into a specific college matter? But that’s just me.</p>

7

<p>This is one of the best posts I’ve ever seen on CC- particularly your last three points. Any student who gets advised to attend a school on here, particularly when the advice seems a little biased, should check the poster’s history. Certain frequent posters (primarily from Big Ten schools, for some reason) seem to place a ton of emphasis on their school’s graduate rankings in certain fields, which is obviously ridiculous, both because high school kids don’t really have it figured out that well, and because they’re GRADUATE rankings.</p>

<p>Anyway, great post.</p>

8

<p>I think these are excellent observations - interesting take on data mining CC. You might add a summary of good advice you’ve seen - because I think there are also a lot of people who go out of their way to encourage people to research, visit and find good fits.</p>

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<p>@ Warbler</p>

<p>Great post – we mostly agree on things. The one area where we differ is the importance of choosing a college based on the field the student thinks s/he will go into.</p>

<p>I agree with you 100% that many students change their mind. However, unless you can get into a school that is strong everywhere, there are decisions to make. Example, you think you want to study computer science and have to choose between School A – great Computer Science dep’t, so-so philosophy department or School B – slightly higher ranked overall. Great Philosophy dep’t, so so computer science department. Both are equal fits, equal cost, etc.</p>

<p>I think all other things being equal, you have to go with School A which is strong in what you think you want to study. Yes you may change your mind, but how else should you make a decision.</p>

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<p>Great posts warbler! What really surprises me is the occasional poster who asks something like “Which should I go to? Harvard or Yale?” Why would someone intelligent enough to get in those schools go on a public forum to ask anyone who happens to be reading which one to attend? I, who have never even set foot on either campus, could easily masquerade as an “expert” on both schools and dispense intelligent-sounding advice.</p>

<p>As for rankings and prestige – Going to certain schools won’t guarantee happiness or even success. I know people (and know of others) who went to “top” schools, had mental breakdowns, and ended up homeless. I know people with two-year community college degrees who have always been gainfully employed and are some of the happiest, most positive people I’m around. The longer I live and the more people I’ve known who’ve died too young, the more I encourage my children to go with their passion (and maybe get a CC certificate on the side to help with employment in rough times :)), not with what they think other people expect them to do or what they think will get them to the top, whatever that is.</p>

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<p>Its classic…kids stuff, basically and sometimes prestige hound parents. </p>

<p>You are correct, finances and fit trump prestige and intended programs. But kids blow that off and go with the higher ranking schools…because they associate self worth with prestige of college. To their detriment and their parents financial detriment.</p>

<p>But this is not new. It happens every year and has been happening for decades. USNWR is responsible for most of it. </p>

<p>All we can do is enlighten and then shrug. Its their life and their choice and their consequence.</p>

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<p>Marsian, even worse than “which should I go to Harvard or Yale” is this, and I’ve seen it a few times this season >>> “Been admitted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Amherst which should I pick? Major: premed”. Are you kidding me?</p>

<p>Smart enough to get into these schools yet dumb enough to ask a bunch of 17 year old strangers what they’d do in this “predicament”. Plus a few years ago it was unheard of to apply to radically different schools like Amherst and MIT or even Penn and Dartmouth. Now it’s common place. Prestige rules.</p>

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<p><a href=“3”>QUOTE=warblersrule</a> Too much emphasis on the field a student thinks he’s going into

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>While many students change their mind, it is inappropriate to recommend a college where the student’s current intended major is weak or nonexistent, because many students do not change their minds and may regret being forced out of their intended major by the school they attend.</p>

<p>Also, students who are likely to change their minds may need to prefer schools strong in many areas, which tends to screen out smaller schools more often than larger schools.</p>

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<p>A lot of the items that irritate warblersrule come from students - kids 15 to 18 years old. It’s usually a good policy to treat many of their posts, theories and opinions with a grain of salt.</p>

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<p>

Well, in many cases I’m not sure that’s actually the case. For most students, who cares if a history program is “weak”? What does that even mean for an undergraduate anyway? It offers fewer courses, perhaps, or will have less varied research going on, but there are only so many courses one can take anyway. A friend of mine majored in art history in college and is now working for a botanic garden as a PR person. Does it really matter how strong or weak art history at her college was? I never really hear her talk about her classes, for that matter - I hear her talk about professors who inspired her, friends she made, and experiences that changed who she is. For certain fields - music performance, languages, math, and the like - department/program strength is admittedly more important. </p>

<p>Yes, ideally everyone should have strong programs in their areas of interest. I am not talking about physics at Chicago vs. Bennington, however - I’m talking about the students who try to parse between physics at Chicago and Yale. </p>

<p>More importantly, department/academic strength is something that should be factored in during the list creation process. A student who has done his/her job right should be happy attending any of the colleges to which (s)he is admitted. Things change, admittedly. Students develop or lose interests in subjects. Maybe they decide an urban college really is for them. Nevertheless, you should aim for having a list of colleges you really like. </p>

<p>I have been completely baffled by the number of students on CC posting things like:
[ul][<em>]“Wake Forest gave me the most money, but I absolutely hate the Greek scene there.”
[</em>]“Dartmouth is the best for econ, but I really don’t want to attend a rural college.”
[<em>]“I only got into Davidson and Penn. Penn is way more expensive, but I want to major in engineering.”
[</em>]“X waitlisted me, and I got into Sweet Briar, but I can’t see myself at a women’s college. What should I tell X?”
[li]“Help! I was only accepted to X. I REALLY don’t want to go there. What are my options??” <— CC regulars have come to expect this one each year[/ul][/li]What is going wrong in the college selection and application process?</p>

<p>

My personal favorite was the student who posted asking if he should attend the college his prep school classmates recommended. A polite and well-intentioned poster but so misguided. (One wonders what the GC at that school is doing.) </p>

<p>This brings up katliamom’s point. Yes, many of the people posting unhelpful or downright misleading things are kids, especially when it pertains to finances. Fine. That’s understandable. Anyone can go through my past posts and see that I knew hardly anything when I first joined CC. Unfortunately, new or temporary posters - which is the bulk of those posting the vs. threads - have no way of distinguishing the good from the bad. Post counts are only a rough guide to knowing whether someone knows what they’re talking about.</p>

16

<p>

A good suggestion. I have seen many excellent posts over the years, and one shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. While I try to quote those posts and very knowledgeable posters (e.g. former poster Carolyn) as much as I can, a compilation of “CC’s Best” might prove helpful to future students. A project for when I have enough time, perhaps.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>It can also mean just whether the program exists. E.g. a student who wants to major in chemical engineering considering a school where the major does not even exist. Admittedly, that is less common for history, as possible history majors do not seem to have schools like Harvey Mudd or New Mexico Tech on their lists.</p>

<p>Note that a reasonably strong program in the major need not be rated “top N” or whatever. But in many fields like math, physics, many engineering subjects, and computer science, there is a fairly well defined set of advanced courses that should be available to the student. A no-name school with a complete major in a subject that the student has a strong interest in may be a better academic fit than a “top N” school that does not have all of the core major courses available.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, that is definitely true. The same goes for any other criteria that the student or parents have, including cost and financial aid. The situations where, at acceptance time, a student has acceptances only at schools either with poor (academic and/or otherwise) fit, or with too high costs that will result in excessive debt, are effectively shut-out situations.</p>

18

<p>Bump-Bump!</p>

<p>Every student/parent who is weighing various offers and options this year should read Warbler’s insightful post!</p>

19

<p>If I were given the job of improving the CC experience, especially to aid with finding good/helpful info, I’d add a moderated Wiki component to the site. There are a lot of threads on the site that belong as discussions – e.g,. Parents of the Class of TK. But, there are also many threads that would be better as crowd-sourced Wikis:

  • List of acceptances
  • List of notification dates
  • List of “things I wish I knew at the start of the process”
  • List of schools for B students (maybe a discussion thread AND a Wiki list)
  • List of schools that give great merit aid</p>

<p>And, I’d love to figure out how to avoid a post in every single college forum that asks, “Anyone know when RD decisions are due?” which is then followed by someone else answering, “The website says April 1st.” Couldn’t we add to the top of each forum:

  • Most recent notification dates (ED, EA and RD)
  • Notification dates announced for this year</p>

<p>I’m not sure how to improve the college selection process itself, especially for the first kids in a family. I know we spent a lot of time on it and I still feel like we made stupid mistakes with some of the schools we included and some we didn’t. It’s overwhelming. It’s not just safety/targets/reaches; it’s also schools that are going to meet enough need or give enough merit. We didn’t understand that folks with our level of need shouldn’t be applying to schools like Goucher. Or, that merit need may be critical for those in upper income brackets but, for us, it could be a red herring. It’s complicated. Add to that stressed, hormonal teenagers and it gets even more confusing.</p>

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<p>^^^ Sorry. I think my previous post was off topic. Just ignore!</p>