College suggestions for my lovely slacker daughter

Parents Forum
21

<p>I like HeliMom's Emory suggestion. I didn't think of it myself, but I see it fitting well.</p>

<p>I've divided these into match/safety/reach since you don't know much about them, but I'm not sure how accurate the division is, so take it with a grain of salt. Schools that come to mind are Boston University and New York University as matches; American, George Washington, and Hofstra as safeties; and Boston College as a bit of a reach. She can take a look at Northeastern as a safety, but it doesn't strike me as the best type of school for her. To move out of the New England area, would she be interested in Penn State? Tulane? McGill in Montreal? University of Michigan? Emory (as mentioned above)? The ideas of Emory and McGill both strike a cord with me from your posts, but it's difficult to switch departments at McGill since it's not on an American educational system.</p>

22

<p>BC, BU, even Northeastern have gotten pretty competitive but geographic distribution might help. Is 'blonde" a diversity category?</p>

23

<p>I second American U and Northeastern. For other suggestions, see my PM.</p>

<p>McGill has gotten pretty reachy of late.</p>

24

<p>I've been following Barnard posts for a good while, and this is the first thread I can recall that suggested it would be a good choice for a slacker. The average GPA of its incoming class tends to be relatively higher than its SAT range, implying "anti-slack". The moms who have posted previously have said their kids are working pretty darned hard. </p>

<p>So this is a bit of a surprise to me.</p>

25

<p>Kluge, as another California parent and a UC grad, I think that the UC's can't be beat for a kid with your d's profile, and an inclination toward premed. In addition to Santa Barbara, UCSC is great for biological sciences -- and truthfully the less competitive UC campuses are probably a better choice for pre-med, since your d is likely to have an easier time keeping up her GPA if she isn't competing against all of those math & science superstars who end up at Berkeley. </p>

<p>I know its hard to give up on the promise of that 34 ACT - it certainly might pull in some merit money at 2nd tier schools -- but that by itself won't get your daughter into the elites. As a Barnard mom, I have to agree with Mythmom that it is an amazing place... but unless you have been overly modest about her accomplishments, I don't think your daughter is going to get in as a BWRK with a 3.5 GPA, unless she's coming from a very high end, prestige prep school. (Barnard's average GPA for enrolling students is 3.96 - they have a lot of driven, perfectionist types). And I am saying that as a parent who is always telling others not to discount their chances, given the fact that my d. got in to Barnard with a dismal ACT of 28 -- but that's kind of the point. Barnard is not about test scores - they really are looking for kids who stand out in some way, so without super-high stats or a hook, a well lopsided profile (outstanding in <em>something</em>) is probably essential. </p>

<p>Having been through the process with a daughter who was dead set on getting away from California -- when you drop down below the elite in terms of likely admissions, at a certain point you are sacrificing a lot in terms of academics as compared to the UC system, especially if your d. wants large & urban & is focused on the northeast. I despaired at first with my d's reach-heavy east coast list, but then I realized that when a kid's <em>safety</em> is UC, there really is no particular value in looking at private colleges that aren't as strong academically -- when I refer to academic strength, I am considering the range of course offerings as well as the level of challenge. </p>

<p>Looking at mythmom's list: NYU, BU or GW means paying $50K a year for pretty much the same experience that you can get at a UC campus as an in-stater for half the price. Sorry -- my d. applied to both NYU & BU, I'm not trying to bash the schools, but you are looking at very large universities, and the difference between public/private in that context is not that great. My d. also wanted large & urban, so of course that was the attraction...... but again, I think you should be grateful that your d. isn't as stubborn as mine. </p>

<p>If I were you, I'd let your d. browse through the Princeton Review 300-something best college book to her heart's content, and apply wherever she wants ... but don't push for out-of-state, and definitely do NOT under any circumstances start trying an EC makeover. Sorry -- I disagree strongly with Mythmom -- that stuff has to come from the kid and their own internal drive, or else you end up with a miserable kid and an ad com that isn't fooled anyway. Since you are a fellow lawyer, I'll explain it in legalese: EC's require corroborating evidence, in the form of some sort of awards, long record of involvement or accomplishment, or teacher recs singing the praises of whatever it is the kid is really dedicated to. Faking it won't work.... and there's no point in adding stress to the parent/kid relationship to the last year the kid is home. Let her do her own thing, whatever that is, and if the worst-case scenario in terms of college admissions is 4 years at UCSB.... well, that's a very nice, sunny, well-regarded "worst-case". You can have a very stress-free senior year with your d. if you simply are at peace with that possible outcome, no matter what other paths your d. decides to explore.</p>

26

<p>"Slacker" is a term that can mean a variety of things, Monydad. My friends all called me a slacker in high school, and I'm currently at the University of Chicago--a school that's known for having a very intense workload--and doing fine. I do think, though, that Barnard would be quite a reach for the OP's daughter.</p>

27

<p>Calmom - a boatload of wisdom, as usual. Thanks.</p>

28

<p>I don't know if American and GW are safeties exactly. I don't know how they look at ACT scores. The GPA/SAT puts her in more of the match category for them, but the ACT instead of the SAT might push her over. I don't think she can get any merit money though, without higher grades, but if her grades go up maybe. These two schools have ridden Georgetown's selectivity train; they are commonly seen as matches to Georgetown's "reach" IMO and that has allowed them to get a little more selective. I saw people with around 3.5 UW (in IB) and similar SATs get rejected this year BUT the ACT is much better and I don't know about their essays, etc. But I think she could get in, I just don't think she'll get any merit money. American just doesn't give a lot IME, GW does (half tuition pretty much straight by the numbers) but I have only seen it formulated based on SAT scores so I can't really comment. You also have to keep in mind that parts of California are very "achiever heavy" meaning that kids from there aren't as attractive geographically at these schools trying to maintain good numbers all over.</p>

29

<p>Given Kluge's description, I took "slacker" to mean "relaxed" or "laid-back", NOT "lazy"- it sounds like his daughter is a good student and serious about her studies, just not the type to lose sleep over an occasional A- or B+. Which is fine, my son is the same way and it is a healthy attitude toward life. But it isn't what Barnard is looking for, and I'm not so sure that a kid who is all that "normal" would be a good fit for Barnard in any case. It's a very competitive environment. My d. has a Type A personality, fits in well there. The description Kluge gave was not a Barnard "fit" even though I am sure that his daughter could do the work if she got in.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
Is 'blonde" a diversity category?

[/quote]
If only! Actually, I don't think people appreciate how limiting being a good looking blonde can be for a young woman. "Dumb blonde" is a stereotype that is hard-wired into the national psyche. And it's so easy - so easy - just to play off that. I understand a certain amount of skepticism in response to this, but I never felt the same concern for my sons.</p>

<p>Calmom has pretty much nailed it. D's school is a high rated public high school, but there's all kinds of students there. A's aren't easy to get in the top classes - her AP scores aren't in but her brother got 4's and 5s in classes he got B's in -- but she'll still miss the top 10% by a hair. And she really hasn't focussed on any concrete goals in life. I say "pre-med" because that's what she has said, but I wouldn't be surprised if that changed.</p>

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<p>Frankly I'm not sure there IS such a thing as a college that can dissuade someone from going to the "blonde" side, except a woman's college maybe. The siren call of using charms is very insistent. Generally learning that its a dangerous path takes time.</p>

32

<p>
[quote]
I know its hard to give up on the promise of that 34 ACT - it certainly might pull in some merit money at 2nd tier schools -- but that by itself won't get your daughter into the elites.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is a difference between "giving up" on a 34 ACT and ignoring the percentages of students who enter a particular school with a 98-99% percentile. For instance, does anyone know how many students with a 34 ACT/3.9 GPA do apply to the non-COED schools that have been labeled as "reaches" in this thread? How many get accepted? </p>

<p>For what it is worth, I believe that such students are statistically quite RARE at schools such as Barnard, Bryn Mawr, and of course, Sarah Lawrence.</p>

33

<p>Don't laugh, blonde Californian slacker girl may be a diversity category at Barnard. I like her chances, frankly.</p>

<p>Other than that, I agree with everything calmom has said--and I would take her advice by the word. Her D has probably had the quintessential Outsider to Barnard experience. The pair ought to write a guide book for newbies.</p>

<p>Fordham might be another choice. Marymount Manhattan may not have enough sciences--but it's a great school for slackers because it's so small. It's worth asking how many successful med school apps they have.</p>

<p>BU is worth a look if she is an extrovert who would take advantage of the location, the study abroad programs and the resources. BU has some great faculty because so many profs want to stay in Boston and they can't all teach at H, <em>ahem</em>. </p>

<p>Mount Holyoke might be another one.</p>

<p>Also, her CR SAT scores woul dhave to be failry high, given that she's kluge's D. Would be my guess.</p>

34

<p>kluge, I had to laugh at the "blonde" diversity category comment. My d actually said something to me about it when she was filling out her college apps/essays last fall. She has a double whammy--blonde AND a cheerleader. She said people were constantly surprised at her ability in classes such as physics and AP calculus because of that stereotype. She said she thought she would help bring diversity to a college because she's not what you think of when you think of the typical engineer. Hmmm. . . is there a typical engineer? That was my question to her. (I hate stereotyping.)</p>

<p>Good luck in your college search. Enjoy the trips together. We have some great memories from them.</p>

35

<p>I also said OP's daughter's stats not quite up to Barnard if you look my original post, but I'm actually not so sure; her weighted average is 3.9 and climbing to 4.1. With 34 ACT it might be okay. However, it's silly to quibble about this because this might not be at all what this young woman wants. I was just responding to what I perceived as OP's desire to help his daughter stretch a bit; this by no means invalidates the CA system which I know is amazing, as I said.</p>

<p>I think calmom has the wrong idea about my POV. I certainly don't think children should be forced into activities, especially for the sake of resumes, but I don't feel that a little nudge in the direction of self development is amiss. My son has a slacker personality; without a gentle nudge he'd be watching STAR WARS all day. When I remind him to practice his violin he has always been very grateful. According to him he loves it but can't get started. Eventually it has become a habit. I would certainly encouraged him to quit because he had so much difficulty practicing except that he said he loved it. I was willing to nag him for something he loved. He won a county music scholarship, but he's seventeen, and it's only this year that he's been able to practice himself. Some kids are not self starters and may need help overcoming resistance. I admit that I felt vey embarrassed that for years I listened to every practice session on violin and piano until both his teachers said that their mothers had done the same until they were eighteen. But force? Certainly not.</p>

<p>I was also responding to OP's discussion of looks versus brains. My daughter won the Social Studies award for highest average in the grade at eighth grade graduation. All anyone said to her was that hetr dress was the nicest and she was the mist beautiful. She tearfully said that she didn't want to be a bimbo. The same thing happened as a senior. This time she won English award and all the compliments she received related to her looks. However, she was much less upset because she had spent time in summer programs in which she met liked minded, intelligent young people who related to her ideas, not her looks. As I previously said, I was trying to help OP problem solve; I was certainly not being proscriptive, merely empathizing and discussing what worked.</p>

<p>As for slackers and Barnard, no it is not a slacker school. However, by junior year D stated that she no longer ever expected to get A's in math or science -- that her mind just didn't work this way. I fully supported her, she was right, and she got into Barnard just fine (from Long Island!) She does have to work very hard at Barnard, but ironically she is doing as well in required math and science as she did in humanities courses.</p>

<p>She does like being in an environment that her looks aren't the focus (although other girls can get pretty upset when they see what she can eat! Me too! sometimes. LOL</p>

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<p>kluge, your D sounds very much like my D -- she also wanted pre-med, at a large urban school in the northeast, Boston & NYC being on top of her list. She chose Northeastern because it had everything she was looking for -- plus their co-op program (paid internships) which extend their BA to five years, but which give kids invaluable hands-on experience -- and the opportunity to help parents considerably with the tuition. And yes, they are interested in geographic diversity. (We're in Colorado.) D loved her first year at NEU -- feels very, very good about her decision.</p>

37

<p>kluge, I've read through this thread and nodded my head in agreement with just about every post -- even the ones in direct contradiction with each other. The fact is your daughter is a wildcard for schools that are in the mid-range of selectivity. It's almost easier to predict low scores/high grades than it is to evaluate high scores/okay grades. </p>

<p>Not that her grades are bad. They're not, it's just that there may be a question about the relationship of her motivation and her ability. Her teacher recommendationers need to be chosen carefully for this reason.</p>

<p>Since she wants big and lively, she should look at some of the larger state schools. Gratefully, UCSB is a very good fallback. Outside of California, I'd consider Arizona, Indiana, Michigan State -- there are many others.</p>

<p>As others have pointed out, Boston is a GREAT college town. BU, BC, Northeastern are all worth the visiting. </p>

<p>The young women we know at Barnard are all over the place in scores and grades so I certainly wouldn't eliminate it. </p>

<p>If your family has the ability to apply ED without financial penalty, then that would also give her a boost at many of the schools.</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
Some kids are not self starters and may need help overcoming resistance.

[/quote]
True, and that's fine -- but Barnard is definitely a place for self-starters. It is just a very intense place. </p>

<p>I'm not trying to be negative here. When I first learned about Barnard several years ago, it seemed to be the perfect place for my daughter -- she went to interview and came back very enthusiastic. But when you talk about a kid being complimented on her good looks or pretty clothes in 8th grade -- my d. was the one the 8th grade class voted "most likely to succeed". I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to get across a sense of the personality & the "type" that Barnard is looking for. You would want the rec letters to use adjectives like "disciplined" "focused" "ambitious". A really good word for my daughter is "proactive" ... she's already working on setting up a summer internship for 2008, and applying for a combined master's degree program at Columbia in 2009. </p>

<p>Note to Xiggi, re post #32: Barnard takes about 25% of applicants; Emory takes 36% - SAT range at Emory is about the same as Barnard, but GPAs range is skewed somewhat lower; Bryn Mawr takes 44%, SAT range about the same for CR, somewhat lower for math; Sarah Lawrence takes 46%, but refused to consider standardized test scores, so the 34 ACT is a wash there. With my son I figured a 35% admit rate was the break between reach/match if his test scores were on the high end for the school -- so yes, Barnard would be a reach, Emory a match/reach in this case, with Bryn Mawr & SLC probably match/safety level. </p>

<p>But all that is beside the point -from Kluge's description, Emory might be a good fit for his d's personality & interests -- I think his kid would be absolutely miserable at SLC, probably unhappy at Bryn Mawr, and based on his description, I don't think she would be happy socially at Barnard. So if I am playing college adviser, I'd be looking for a large campus with a lot more of the traditional college social life and amenities, because I think Kluge-daughter might enjoy a place with cheerful, friendly students and lots of on-campus social activities. I've never visited Emory, but I think that might work -- and that's what people are getting at with the word "fit", which is different than "match". "Fit" means, does it meet the kid's criteria and would she be happy there.</p>

<p>Northeastern might also be a good fit, especially if the d's weaker GPA is a reflection of a more outwardly-focused life - that is, if she's the kind of kid who would rather be working much of the time than attending class. NEU offered my d. about $10K of merit money, so the 34 ACT might be worth some real $$ there, too.</p>

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<p>I don't have any input as far as schools, but I wanted to say I don't think you should be so hard on your daughter. Its not all about education, there are so many other aspects to a person's character. When I read about your daughter, she didn't sound like a slacker AT ALL! A slacker to me is a kid that does just what they have to do to barely get by. A 3.5 is definitely not that. Your daughter is a well rounded person who has very good grades and an active life. It would probably do you both some good to recognize that. With all my parents' faults, they have always supported and praised me as a person and saw my academic achievements as one facet of me.</p>

40

<p>Some reality testing here - its ugly out there for BRWK females. D with 770/670 SATs, 3 sports, did not get into any selective schools because she had - Gasp!- a 3.5 UW (4.0W but our school does not want to hurt feelings and does not report W GPA). She did not geographically diversify as much as she perhaps should have - too many NE schools for a NE kid. I'd look carefully at applicant pools - at some places (Northeastern for sure) someone from Cali will be unusual. (Altho I doubt I'd pay for NE over UC schools).</p>