“If it bleeds, it leads” on TV news generally, and right-leaning opinion TV probably has extra incentive to play up crime news.
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I would not be surprised if colleges attended by students from predominantly high SES backgrounds (i.e. many of the super selective private colleges favored on these forums) were considered “target rich” by local thieves who see those students as naive to the fact that leaving doors open or unlocked and valuable things unattended makes theft easy.
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One of S23’s top picks is the University of Minnesota. It borders a high crime area and that is where many off campus apartments are. We are talking gun crimes, car jacking, robberies. Yep, I’m nervous.
On the other hand, he was accepted at both Oregon State and the University of Idaho. I would have loved for him to be somewhere I deemed safe.
We now see how that turned out.
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I went to USC in the late '80s when the area was supposedly even worse than it was 20 years ago, and I outright don’t believe your friend. Nobody ever mugged me or broke into my car when I was going there, and I can’t remember anyone else who ever told me they were mugged. If you get mugged once or twice, you’re going to figure out how to avoid muggings thereafter. People who keep saying it’s unsafe are saying it based on outdated reputation rather than actual, current knowledge.
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One of my daughter’s friends was raped freshman year by another student who lived in her dorm. She had been drinking and was passed out on her bed. The roommate let the boy in and left the room. She woke up to the rape in process. There was a trial but the boy was not convicted.
At the same college, just this past year, another rape occurred when a non-student followed a student into their dorm (the student held the door). No arrests were made as there were no cameras outside of the dorm and the rapist was a complete stranger to the victim. The family is now fighting to get cameras installed.
We need to teach our kids how to protect themselves and how NOT to put themselves in vulnerable positions (pay attention to your surroundings - not your phone, lock your car door the second you get in, don’t hold the door open for people you don’t know in dorms and apartment buildings, don’t let yourself get too drunk to defend yourself, use the buddy system, don’t get intimate with someone who is under the influence - even if they are saying “yes”), etc., etc.
There’s no way to run from crime, either by choosing what we believe is a “safe” college campus or picking to live in a neighborhood that doesn’t show up on the police blotter. We never know who our kids are living with in dorms and college apartments and as adults, we don’t know the mental state of every neighbor or coworker or person on the freeway or shopper at the mall. Sadly, not even the youngest school children are safe in their classrooms. We live in a world where we need to be ready to react at all times - no matter what the “numbers” say.
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I understand what you mean to imply, and that’s not a bad observation to make. In our case, Penn was never under consideration anyway. Temple, in particular, has a reputation for not particularly addressing security issues for students, which is part of what often concerns people. Whether that reflects intention or funding, I don’t know but I expect Penn (which is also a more compact site) has more money for just about everything compared to Temple.
Because a school is in a city, or in a part of a city with a higher crime rate, does not necessarily mean bad things. But the attitude towards that crime rate as inevitable usually does.
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Wondering if Temple has seen a reduction in application numbers because of this?
Parents at my older daughter’s college have been very actively advocating for quicker and more complete notice via the college’s emergency notification system, of crimes that happen around (but not on the campus). They maintain that it is the college’s responsibility to promptly notify them of ALL crimes in the vicinity - even if they don’t involve students and even if they are resolved quickly by police. While the college is committed to notification of crimes that involve students and which occur on campus, I think they are reluctant to assume the responsibility of notification of all crimes that happen outside of campus, in non-student locations, among non-students.
Parents are not happy with the college’s response and very vocal on social media, but you’ll never see a reduction in application numbers to this college because of it. Perspective parents who comment that they are similarly concerned, don’t seem to be concerned enough not to allow their kid to hit “submit” or to write the deposit check. To me, the fastest way to get a college to respond to an issue would be to see a significant drop in applications due to that issue - but at the popular colleges, I don’t think you’ll see that happen.
You’ve raised a complicated question.
While most urban colleges work hard to mesh their own law enforcement/security programs and policies with the surrounding city, it is NOT that easy to get it to work in reverse. So the college may-- in fact-- have active and ongoing meetings with local police force, try to coordinate, more information and better information- but if the U gets stonewalled (“we don’t have the resources, we can’t run a 24/7 police force AND treat you guys like special snowflakes, we can’t encourage vigilante behavior by alerting your students to an incident- which may or many not be cause for concern”) etc.
I grew up in a college town. So don’t assume it’s the college’s fault when crimes “in the vicinity” which do not involve students, are not on college property, don’t get publicized in the same way that a rash of laptop thefts in the library would be. Even back then, there were a LOT of “defund the police” type advocates (using different language of course- they were “pigs” back then) who lived in the town, paid property taxes, etc. and they were VERY vocal about NOT having local law enforcement work harder with campus security.
So it could be the town/city in your D’s college which is the problem, and not the U.
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Temple tends to offer very good scholarships. I don’t think they have an enrollment issue. I’d like to know the number of students who transfer out. They do have a notification system for crime, but it doesn’t extend to many areas off campus where a lot of students live. Parents get together and pay for private security in zones designated by color - green zone, red zone etc. The relationship between the TU police and the administration is strained. Philly police force is seriously understaffed.
I asked my friend about this weekend and off the top of his head he mentioned a student carjacking, and a robbery at gun point.
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Doesn’t look like Temple is hurting from applications: https://news.temple.edu/news/2022-03-15/temple-sees-record-application-numbers-upcoming-fall-semester
My D’s school publishes a daily crime report. I used to follow the page when my D was a freshman but had to stop as it was freaking me out (it’s like spending too much time on my community’s Next Door page). That said, most of the reports we’re for alcohol and drug violations. They do send text alerts out to students for serious issues.
I currently live in a college town, nearly adjacent to campus (I’m so close that there is a campus dorm and blue light a block away from my house). We have the lowest crime rate of any other section of town because the area gets double coverage from town police and the university’s police force. But, if you look strictly at the crime numbers, it looks higher because of all the drinking/drug reports from the university. What we have way less of is the serious stuff.
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I’m just going to say it…
Temple is not significantly more dangerous than other colleges. There are a million lists out there. Temple isn’t in the top for any of them. Anyone can Google lists if they like, too many to link.
I looked for the most easily comparable data. Here’s some for another CC favorite whipping boy, Yale in New Haven.
And the “#1” most dangerous campus, Temple in Philadelphia, if CC is to be believed.
Per 1000 students, the numbers are almost identical, about 14 crimes per 1000 students. Yes, Temple reported many more crimes overall. Temple has 39,581 students total. Yale has 14,567.
So let’s throw in a town and university generally considered to be really safe with a great college vibe. U Michigan at Ann Arbor, with 44,718 students. How Safe Is University of Michigan - Ann Arbor? Learn About Campus Crime Statistics
30 incidents per 1000 students. Twice that of Temple or Yale. 1,449 incidents overall. Compare that to Yale with 200 incidents and Temple with 575.
I know two Temple grads, neither of whom were mugged or had anything else of note happen. Clearly, there is crime, but this thread makes it sound as if people are walking around brandishing guns, looting and pillaging, and that it’s a free for all hotbed of criminal activity.
In a quest for fair and balanced reporting, I also wanted to throw in the gem of Harry Potteresque aesthetic, in a lovely, posh neighborhood. Yes, Boston College too appears to be swirling in criminal activity. With 14,934 students, BC is, due to its size, the most dangerous school I’ve looked at, with 70 incidents per 1000 students, and a total of 1,051 crimes overall.
I’m enjoying being the purveyor of shocking details, so have a look at these eye-popping stats. How Safe Is Boston College? Learn About Campus Crime Statistics
To bring it full circle to the OP’s post about Wake Forest, I’m sorry to say that it is close on the heels of the extremely dangerous BC. It has about 9000 students total. There were 62.86 reported crimes per 1000 students, and a total of 534 crimes overall.
How Safe Is Wake Forest University? Learn About Campus Crime Statistics
Of course, crime is something all students and parents should take seriously. It’s very important to do your own research and not assume that a campus is safe just because it’s in a rich neighborhood, or that it’s dangerous because it’s in a poor neighborhood.
There is a big difference between a location being poor, low income, modest, working class, or whatever, and actually dangerous. These words are not all synonymous.
I would have no concerns about sending my kids to any of these colleges. All students need to use common sense and be aware of their surroundings, anywhere.
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And I completely disagree and take issue with your assumption that some of us can’t differentiate between truly dangerous and the area being “poor, low income, whatever”.
When a Temple student was murdered during a carjacking during the day in front of his apartment in 2021 it wasn’t in the Clery report.
2 blocks off campus, but outside of the patrol zone, where a huge number of students live.
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There have, tragically, been murders near and at a lot of colleges, I’m sorry to say. I don’t think there is any doubt that some people do equate poverty with crime. Some. Not all.
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I don’t know why people keep saying this. The crime statistics are parsed out by neighborhood with no designation of the socioeconomic status of the community.
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fwiw, I looked up Temple’s reported crime stats. They’re here, through 2021:
They look low in terms of things that’ll get you killed, but not that low in terms of quality of life stuff.
That said, this happened, and it is not in Temple’s stats.
And this was a really big deal at the time, so I did some more digging.
I found a very good, very thorough, but paywalled story from November 2022 that details this discrepancy, by The Philadelphia Inquirer, here:
Here’s a big chunk of the story:
When professor Jeffrey Doshna read Temple University’s latest crime report, he was immediately struck by a seeming omission.
The murder of Samuel Collington last November, less than two blocks from a campus building, wasn’t reflected in the statistics. In fact, the university reported zero murders either on or off its main North Philadelphia campus for 2021, just as it has for every past year on record.
By federal law, Temple didn’t leave anything out. Universities are required to report only crimes that occur directly on campus, on public property adjacent to campus, or at off-campus affiliated university buildings. The result is that killings that took place last year in what many consider Temple’s neighborhood — on the 1700 block of North 16th Street, the 1700 block of Cecil B. Moore Avenue, or the 2200 block of North Park Avenue, where Collington died — are unaccounted for in Temple’s annual crime report.
Still, Doshna, an associate professor of planning and community development and president of the faculty union, found it jarring not to see Collington’s shooting death noted in the Clery report, meant to give students, parents, and the public-at-large a better sense of campus crime. Although the Nov. 28 carjacking outside Collington’s off-campus residence was outside the border of the Temple University police patrol zone, it was well within sight of the Johnson and Hardwick dorms, Annenberg Hall, and the Newman Center.
Some say that the law needs to change, that campuses should at least have to report crimes within their police department patrol zone or in off-campus areas where a critical mass of their students live — what any stakeholder would want to know about the quality of life at school.
Others disagree, saying the law’s intent was to document crime on campuses, and it would be unfair to require reporting where campus police aren’t the primary patrol agency.
“We feel that the patrol zone is already too large and [Collington’s death] happened outside of those boundaries,” where Philadelphia police are the primary patrol agency, said Ken Kaiser, Temple’s senior vice president and chief operating officer. “So, to be judged on these incidents that happen in that area is not a true reflection of Temple University.
As a result, Temple’s archived Clery safety reports indicate there hasn’t been a murder on campus or on public property surrounding Temple’s campus since at least 2016. (The university has removed disclosures stretching beyond that year.)
Though if someone were standing behind Temple’s Newman Center when Collington was killed, they would have been able to look north and watch the incident unfold.
Other murders have occurred well within the patrol zone, a quadrant drawn north from Jefferson to Susquehanna Streets and from 18th to Ninth Streets, with an additional chunk covering athletic fields. Still, they were just shy of campus property that would require mandatory disclosure under Clery.
For instance, in July 2021, 15-year-old Sabria Gaymon was shot to death on the 1700 block of North 16th Street, steps from a blue Temple police security pylon and across the street from the rear of Temple’s Aramark Training Complex.
If she had been found a few doors to the north, on Montgomery Avenue, her death likely would have been included in the annual report.
And 18-year-old Ahmir Jones was shot and killed in the 1700 block of Cecil B. Moore Avenue on Nov. 16, 2021, during a robbery. That’s in the patrol zone, but a couple of blocks from campus, so his shooting, too, was omitted.
Other shootings occurred on campus. In one, on June 5, 2021, a 29-year-old male was shot in front of the Insomnia Cookies Bakery, which is located under Morgan Hall, a dorm on Broad Street.
This was included in Temple’s Clery report, but because the shooting was not fatal, it was counted — just as some police departments do — as aggravated assault, along with stabbings and fistfights.
In addition to safety concerns, crime around college campuses can have another deleterious effect: lower enrollment.
Kaiser, Temple’s COO, acknowledged that crime or the perception of it has been a factor in the 6.4% enrollment drop this year.
Allegations of an unsafe campus can be “devastating” to enrollment and admissions, said Terry W. Hartle, senior vice president at the Washington-based American Council on Education.
Yet, urban campuses generally, said Hartle, tend to be safer than surrounding communities, as they often have their own police departments and heavily populated areas. He doesn’t think the Clery law reporting requirements should be expanded to include police patrol zones and that doing so could create “a negative incentive” for schools.
“You’re basically encouraging schools to narrow their patrol zones, not expand them,” he said.
For students, crime has an impact on their sense of well-being.
Maggie Dunleavy, 21, a psychology major from Warrington, said she lived in an off-campus neighborhood last year but moved home to Bucks County this year to commute, in part because of crime concerns.
“I just was tired of not being able to walk outside of our apartment after 5 p.m. alone,” she said.
Olivia Sulewski, 21, a junior, also from Bucks County who lives off campus on 17th Street, between Berks and Montgomery, said last month there had been four cars stolen in the area.
In the meantime, her mother, who signed up to receive TU alerts — Temple’s communication system for notifying the campus community of a potential serious and continuing threat on or near campus — texts her when she sees an alert, asking if she is OK. In October alone, Temple issued 10 alerts — required by Clery law — for shots fired, shootings, and armed robberies.
Even while Temple officials acknowledge they are hearing more concerns from parents about safety, they maintain the fears are driven more by perception than reality.
Overall reports of serious crime on or in public areas immediately adjacent to the main North Philadelphia campus have actually declined, according to Temple’s Clery reports. Between 2017 and 2021, they fell by nearly half, from 104 incidents to just 66 last year.
In two police service areas under the jurisdiction of the city’s 22nd District that largely encompass the Temple police patrol zones as well as a larger area where some students live — from Lehigh to Poplar and 10th to 22nd Streets — overall crime also declined, according to statistics from the Philadelphia Police Department. Total recorded criminal incidents were down 13% from 2017 through 2021.
However, violent crime in those same service areas increased dramatically during that period. So even as robberies or burglaries fell, murders and aggravated assaults increased nearly 40% from 2017 through the end of 2021.
Both Kaiser and Griffin said Temple is taking steps to increase security on and off campus, including the addition of eight officers, with more hires to come.
The university has expanded its walking escort service and shuttles. It recently launched a program to encourage landlords to improve lighting and security; and it’s maintaining a list of those landlords in its police patrol zone that are deemed quality housing. The university will pay landlords up to $2,500 to add cameras and more lighting.
Griffin said she has completed an audit of 1,300 surveillance cameras on and around campus. The university also plans to install more “code blue” emergency phones with direct contact to police dispatchers, but it can only put those on campus property.
Kaiser said no matter what, Temple can’t guarantee students’ safety — something he says he readily tells parents.
“But the closer you live to campus, the better it is,” he said.
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As I mentioned, it is easy to find many horrific stories about murders and other terrible crimes taking place on or near college campuses all over the country, dating back decades.
Someone can create a whole thread about grisly college crimes, but perhaps… not. Best to leave that stuff to websites like True Crime Library.
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The article attached isn’t about that one murder, but ok. It reveals that because of a lack of campus housing, a large number of Temple students live off campus. The Clery report doesn’t accurately reflect crime in these areas and the University is ok with it for obvious reasons.
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Yes, that is true. It is very difficult to get the true picture of just how dangerous a college really is. That’s why people need to do their own research.
I don’t think Temple is the most dangerous college. The reality for most college students is that they are far more likely to experience some type of crime as a result of drugs /alcohol or sexual assault. Those are the most common types of serious crimes reported on college campuses.
And they are not trivial. Alcohol poisoning/drug overdoses kill people, rape is horrific. I’m saying a college student is, sadly, more likely to experience those types of serious crimes as opposed to being murdered.
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Catalytic converter theft has skyrocketed in many places, has nothing to do with whether or not people are locking their cars. It takes less than a minute for someone to slide under a car and get the catalytic converter. There is a lucrative black market for them and easy money for criminals. We had ours stolen a couple weeks ago parked by our house, in a fairly nice neighborhood- but it is happening in all parts of my city(and in many other cities). And we are within a mile of a college campus of almost 20,000 undergraduates.
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