Colleges changing their criteria for admissions decisions

Parents Forum
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<p>"^^and that analysis doesnt even take into account the high schools that have ridiculously high standards for allowing kids to even step foot inside any AP class vs the schools that let anyone take them…</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter how many classes are offered if only 25 students are permitted to take them each year…"</p>

<p>^This. </p>

<p>The district where I live doesn’t rank, doesn’t weight GPA and no one can take a AP course without being recommended by a teacher and the exam must be taken. All the colleges know this and so they look very carefully at each transcript. 92% of the kids go on to 4 yr colleges and they get kids accepted at all the elite colleges and universities.</p>

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<p>Fendrock, S2 took IB Philosophy (took it as an elective since he already had all his IB diploma courses set) and it was one of the best classes he had in high school.</p>

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<p>Kim We parents/students can offer you innuendo, theories, gossip but not facts. I do look forward to reading your article but agree the people you need to interview are adcoms not parents. You might have luck with some well connected guidance counselors as well.</p>

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<p>im going to think a little harder about my child’s high school decision now that ive read about the magnet school tip. we have a choice between a stem magnet school with lots of poor performing kids and some amazing ones, his charter school where he will be in their second 9th grade class but that has had terrific results as a middle school and IB which i dont think will give him enough time for his science research…gotta think it through a bit more!</p>

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<p>emilybee: lucky you!!; be happy for what you have!</p>

<p>the district I live in weights AP’s and honors, ranks students and doesn’t tell any college how difficult it is to be admitted into AP courses (and honors for that matter)…and no, we don’t have 92% going to four year college and our acceptances to top schools is basically only for those students in the top 5% of the class…</p>

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<p>Kayakmom, Our experience was that math/science-oriented kids were happier in a STEM program than in IB. Our IB was particularly strong in the social sciences/humanities, though partly because the tippy-top math/sci kids funneled off to the comparable math/science program. Both programs were within a regular public HS, unlike TJ, Stuy, etc. and were highly diverse, ethnically as well as SES.</p>

<p>Both kids knew they’d take a GPA hit vs. attending the local HS, but they both also wrote some terrific essays that demonstrated the quality education they got in return. As S2 told newly admitted students (and their parents) on tours when they came to observe, this program may not get you into the Ivy League, but it will sure prepare you to do well wherever you attend college. </p>

<p>Magnet programs (esp. IB) can be stressful, though – it can be a tough adjustment for kids who are used to being the best. It takes a certain personality to thrive in this environment. It helps if the kid doesn’t define him/herself by academic performance, is resilient and a risk-taker.</p>

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<p>Rodney,</p>

<p>same here. the schools my S2 attends severely limits the number of students allowed in AP courses: kids have to jump through the hoop (they say they are going to be more open from next year on). On top of that, this school “hosts” kids with all sorts of behavioral problems (juvenile offense records etc) in a separate school-within-a-school setup. Though these kids are completely separately educated from the rest of the kids, their stats are still rolled into the general stats. </p>

<p>Hence, the course rigor level is pretty up there for the “normal” kids and APs should really count for something (my S2 was only one of the 19 kids form his junior class - 5% of the total student body - who were AP scholars (the number being low not because they did not score high enough on AP exams, but because it’s so hard to be admitted to multiple AP courses). Yet, when you put a school profile, 4 year college bound kids %, average SAT etc plummet because of this “separate, school within the school” population. So, S2 does not even get a benefit of doubt of “oh, this kid is going to a really tough school with very competitive student body”.</p>

<p>I really wonder if admissions officers know about any of this. They all say, these people know the school, but I really am not sure…</p>

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<p>“emilybee: lucky you!!; be happy for what you have!”</p>

<p>My son doesn’t go to that school - he’s at a private school. There students take any advanced classes they want at the community college. It’s right next to his campus so it’s very convenient. The only class my son is taking at the CC is Physics. All the rest are just honors classes - but very in depth and no teaching to any test. Since it is private there is also no requirement to take NYS Regents exam (another pet peeve of mine.) </p>

<p>Frankly, imo, I believe all this teaching to the tests (whether state exams or AP) has done nothing but dumb down the curriculum of high school. </p>

<p>There is absolutely no reason that high school courses cannot be rigorous without being AP.</p>

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<p>Here’s how DD1’s college ([article](<a href=“http://web.reed.edu/reed_magazine/spring2008/features/many_apply/5.html]article[/url]”>Reed Magazine: Many Apply. Few are Chosen. (5/5))</a>) does the weighting:</p>

<p>20% HS courses (rigor/curriculum)
20% GPA + rank + test scores
20% interview and recommendations
20% essays
20% ECs (involvement)</p>

<p>This seems in line with the trend; I like that the stats are de-emphasized.</p>

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<p>wow, that article was really an honest glimpse into the admissions decision-making process.</p>

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<p>^^^ Agreed, though it works just as I figured it does.</p>

<p>lizmane and rodney, I hope that your HS profiles detail the special circumstances of your schools. If not, you need to work to change that.</p>

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<p>Rather refreshing!</p>

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<p>^^^The most terrifying line in the whole thing:</p>

<p>"Her counselor rec is nice, but it’s for Brown.”</p>

<p>How do you control for <em>that</em>? (I’d hope for a little compassion from the Ad Com. Kids are going to apply to more than one school, and the applicant doesn’t see the counselor rec…)</p>

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<p>Some guidance offices are happy to have interested parents get involved in helping to update the school profile. (Of course, others aren’t. Some are reluctant to even share the profile.) The more info that’s included about access to AP and advanced courses, weighting, challenges the kids may face, etc., the clearer the picture for the college admissions folks. That helps every kid who is considering college, not just those aspiring to a select few schools.</p>

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<p>Yeah, it might not be easy, but it still needs to get done. I volunteered this year to edit our HS profile, even though I don’t have a senior this year. The key is to get buy-in from someone influential that it makes the school (and them) look better.</p>

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<p>vossron. Reed is a very fine school but this site and all the talk about admission really is about admission at just 15-20(30 at most) schools. Go look at the schools mentioned in the recent NYT admission article that got so much coverage on this site. The break down for admission at the very top schools is very different. First of all 60-75% of the admitted students have various hooks. The best book to read on this subject is the The Price of Admission. Secondly the GPA/SAT count for far more than 20%. At the top schools unless you have a hook there is a level you must acheive to be seriously considered - above 3.8 uw and over 2250 SAT. Once you are above that level then all those other things come into play for unhooked applicants. The ivy adcoms deny this but they are being dishonest. Go look at the average SAT’s at the top five-six schools and you will find it’s about 2300 for unhooked students. There is no way the SAT/GPA could count for just 20% and that the average SAT would end up that high. They are only choosing unhooked students from that very narrow GPA/SAT pool. Now if you are a recruited athlete then it’s a totally different ballgame. Then 3.6/2100 is good enough. But again this really only applies to a handful of schools but they are the ones everyone talks about on this site.</p>

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<p>emilybee, youdon’t say: like emilybee’s son, my younger daughter (HS senior) is no longer in the public school system that I described; my older daughter, however, went through the public HS and while the guidance office told us that the colleges “knew” how rigorous the AP system was, it was not on the school profile and IMO it definitely affected admissions (especially for the students below top 5% but still within the top 10-15%)…add to the fact that their teachers believed that a “B” was a terrific grade in honors and AP classes, we had a bit of grade deflation (also not shown on profile)…whatever; over and done with…</p>

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<p>To the OP’s question, I have two observations. At my son’s relatively highly ranked public high school, all the kids who worked hard, did the homework, handed in the papers and did a relatively good job got an A in the Honors/AP classes as well as in other classes. They did not have to be incredibly smart to get all A’s, just diligent. The less smart ones who were painfully diligent – ShawSon used to describe a set of girls in his classes as OCDs as they did everything right and came in every day at 6:30 to meet with teachers to go over assignments before handing them in – still did very well. The tests were not typically sufficiently hard to distinguish between kids who were really bright and kids who were bright and hard-working. </p>

<p>Because of this compression at the top due to grade inflation, elite colleges can not use grades (or even class rank, although the school did not report class rank) to separate out the great kids academically from the good ones. So, given that all the kids had all A’s, the elite colleges would have to use difficulty of high school plus difficulty of schedule as a proxy for academic ability.</p>

<p>One might think that this would increase reliance on SAT scores. But, a few years ago, the College Board in its wisdom recentered SAT scores . Although the recentering was done for another purpose, it had the effect of compressing scores at the top. For example, all students who would have received math scores 730 or above on the previous version of the exam received 800s on the recentered version. I’ve posted in another thread about the effects of the Verbal recentering, which does create compression as well (though I think less, IIRC). So, SAT scores are less valuable in separating out the upper tail of the distribution. They all have A’s and really high scores.</p>

<p>What’s an elite university to do if they are trying to separate out the exceptional kids from the sea of really good ones? Look for a) difficulty of high school; b) difficulty of curriculum; and c) external signs of passion and quality (science prizes, publications, jobs/internships, etc.). That is consistent with the trend the OP is reporting.</p>

<p>My second observation is that students at highly selective private high schools in and around our city that grade harder probably disadvantage their kids in the college admissions process somewhat by their hard grading relative to public high schools. Of course, they don’t rank, but at least grades distinguish. But, in some courses, teachers haven’t given an A in over 5 years. So, GPA’s are lower. The private schools claim that their harder grading does not create a disadvantage and that college admissions offices know the grading philosophies of each of the professors (which seems a real stretch to me), but most of the kids in those schools who did reasonably well would have had all A’s at our public HS and would have looked to be in the top tier.</p>

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<p>This is not the case in our high school.</p>

<p>A student would need to be very bright indeed to get a 4.0 and it hardly ever happens.</p>

<p>Adcoms do need to be familiar with schools to put a GPA in context – the school profile must be a very important piece of the puzzle.</p>

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<p>What Shawbridge says about his school is not true of our, reasonably highly ranked, suburban high school, either. Our school requires recommendation for AP courses (although I think that can sometimes be overridden), but the grading is pretty tough, at least as I hear it from the kids–an A really means something, and very, very few kids get scores over 95. The high school does not weigh gpas, and only ranks to the decile. I do think that trying to rely on gpa as the best yardstick for college application is tricky; not only do the schools vary, but the teachers also–grading is subjective, obviously, and even in the same high school, two AP teachers can hand out very different grades for the same work. Being “familiar with the school,” or even having the GC’s interpretation of the school’s rigor, can’t give the adcom the whole story. Okay, that’s where the SATs or ACTs come in–but, as has been pointed out endlessly, those can be gamed as well. What you have left is a number of indicators that must be parsed individually, which makes the term “criteria” less meaningful, in the sense of absolute requirement.</p>