Colleges for Debaters

<p>From one of the posts in the famous “Andison” thread here on CC (<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/192395-no-acceptances-one-kid-s-story-year-later.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/192395-no-acceptances-one-kid-s-story-year-later.html&lt;/a&gt;) :</p>

<p>
[quote]
Stanford, academically the equal of the Ivies, has few all-state musicians in its applicant pool. Therefore, it takes a lot less to stand out in its pool as a musician --or for that matter, as an actor--than it does at an Ivy. The kind of musical skill that wouldn't make you one of the top 200 musicians applying to Yale or Harvard in a given year might put you in the top dozen at Stanford--and get you in. (It will take a lot more to get in as an athlete.) Is the fact that this musician gets into Stanford, though not to Yale or Harvard proof Stanford values musicians more than Harvard and Yale? Of course not!</p>

<p>It's proof of the fact that too many kids who are very talented but not the very, very best in what they do--whether it's an academic subject or an EC--apply to the very best places to do it. All the mathematicians apply to Princeton, Harvard, MIT. The wannabe economists apply to MIT, UChicago, Wharton (Penn.) The wannabe philosopher applies to Princeton. When they look for matches and safeties, they make the same mistake. The philosopher whose reach is Princeton uses NYU for his match. The musician applies to Yale and Oberlin. The artist chooses Bard . The creative writer uses Sarah Lawrence . The actor chooses Vassar. The squash player chooses Trinity College. A lot of the other kids with the same interests do exactly the same thing. Not surprisingly, the results of this sort of strategy are often disappointing.</p>

<p>Apply to a few schools which are not THE best in what you or your kid wants to do. A mathematician who isn't USAMO level, but is very good should apply to Stanford and Yale, not just Princeton, MIT, and Harvard. The actor shouldn't just choose Yale, Harvard, Brown and Northwestern as his reaches, but throw in Stanford too. The swimmer who isn't good enough to swim for Stanford may well be a major "catch" for Dartmouth--which does so poorly in Ivy competition, that it tried to drop the team--unsuccessfully. If he wants to go to a LAC, the actor shouldn't just apply to Williams as a reach with Vassar as a match--throw in a Carleton. You can act there too.</p>

<p>The point is to take supply and demand into account in choosing your colleges and apply to a few schools where there won't be 1,000s of kids who do what you do well too applying. That's why athletes applying to the Ivies get in.

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</p>

<p>I’m somewhat accomplished as a high school debater—certainly not one of the tippy top in the country, but among the best in my (relatively populous) state.</p>

<p>With that in mind, what do you think are the most “obvious” schools for high school debaters to apply to, and which selective schools see less than their share? I know that Dartmouth, Harvard, and Yale all receive debater applications in extreme excess. Is there any applicant pool in which a state-championship-level debater (from a rural public high school, in an underrepresented geographic area of her state that had never before fielded a state championship team, if that matters at all) would be more sought-after?</p>

<p>what type of debate? do you want to debate in college?</p>

<p>Spring, 2008 rankings:</p>

<p>School Total Points </p>

<ol>
<li> Binghamton 583 </li>
<li> Liberty University 561</li>
<li> Kansas (Univ. of) 526</li>
<li> Emory 513 </li>
<li> Kansas State 491</li>
<li> Oklahoma 490 </li>
<li> Harvard 481 </li>
<li> Mary Washington 465 </li>
<li> U.S. Military Academy 459 </li>
<li>Wake Forest 456 </li>
<li>Dartmouth 442 </li>
<li>Northwestern 428 </li>
<li>California 417 </li>
<li>Michigan State Univ. 417 </li>
<li>Cornell University 416 </li>
<li>Wichita State 406 </li>
<li>Missouri State 401 </li>
<li>Southern California 401 </li>
<li>Gonzaga 385 </li>
<li>Vanderbilt 368 </li>
<li>James Madison 367 </li>
<li>Texas 365 </li>
<li>Minnesota 364 </li>
<li>Wyoming 353 </li>
<li>Boston College 347 </li>
<li>Whitman College 344 </li>
<li>Texas-Dallas 342 </li>
<li>Wayne State 335 </li>
<li>Baylor 330 </li>
<li>San Francisco State 328 </li>
<li>George Mason 326 </li>
<li>Northern Iowa (Univ.) 325 </li>
<li>Kansas City Kansas CC 318 </li>
<li>Towson 312 </li>
<li>Central Oklahoma 303 </li>
<li>West Georgia 297 </li>
<li>Idaho State 297 </li>
<li>Georgia 295 </li>
<li>Rochester 291 </li>
<li>Bard College 289 </li>
<li>Miami 286 </li>
<li>Southwestern 285 </li>
<li>Louisiana-Lafayette 284 </li>
<li>Richmond (Univ. of) 277 </li>
<li>Texas San Antonio 273 </li>
<li>Weber State Univ. 271 </li>
<li>Vermont 271 </li>
<li>CSU Fullerton 270 </li>
<li>Michigan University 270 </li>
<li>Miami (Florida) 265 </li>
<li>Nevada Las Vegas 263 </li>
<li>CSU Sacramento 261 </li>
<li>Arizona State 257 </li>
<li>Samford 255 </li>
<li>Concordia 254 </li>
<li>Cal. State Chico 253 </li>
<li>Florida 249 </li>
<li>Iowa 248 </li>
<li>Georgia State 247 </li>
<li>Pepperdine 245 </li>
<li>Missouri-Kansas City 243 </li>
<li>Appalachian State 241 </li>
<li>Illinois State University 239 </li>
<li>Trinity University 233 </li>
<li>Kentucky 231 </li>
<li>Georgetown 228 </li>
<li>Pittsburgh 227 </li>
<li>Macalester 221 </li>
<li>Johnson County 218 </li>
<li>North Texas (Univ.) 217 </li>
<li>Cal Poly SLO 212 </li>
<li>Redlands 209 </li>
<li>West Virginia 204 </li>
<li>Emporia State U. 195 </li>
<li>U.S. Naval Academy 177 </li>
<li>Marist College 173 </li>
<li>Denver 155 </li>
<li>Fort Hays 155 </li>
<li>CSU Northridge 154 </li>
<li>City University NY 147 </li>
<li>Louisville 137 </li>
<li>Puget Sound 137 </li>
<li>Case Western 123 </li>
<li>Eastern New Mexico U 82</li>
<li>Augustana IL 64 </li>
<li>Mercer 63 </li>
<li>East Los Angeles College 39 </li>
<li>Loyola Marymount (CA) 22 </li>
<li>Santa Clara 17 </li>
<li>Portland State University 8 </li>
</ol>

<p>Full report here: <a href="http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/ndt/00-ndtreport-apr-08.doc%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/ndt/00-ndtreport-apr-08.doc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'm reading this in my hotel room at the TOC.</p>

<p>Thinking back on the schools I was considering, I remember specifically Claremont McKenna College, Dartmouth College, Brown University, and Yale University as schools which were pretty big on debate. Of course being in debate will help your application at any school; doing well or serving as an officer will do you even better, but I can't say for sure if certain schools' applicant pools become 'saturated' with specific characteristics. For example, the article you mentioned cited that Stanford is in need of singers, but being in the All-State mixed choir in Texas wasn't good enough to get me accepted (or even waitlisted for that matter).</p>

<p>Still, I think I'll be very happy with my college choice next fall. I was accepted at Dartmouth and will matriculate there later this year.</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice, Wwoody. And congratulations! :)</p>

<p>tickytock, I'm a policy debater, and would certainly be happy to debate in college, although I'm not sure how doing so would be impacted by how parliamentary-dominated most schools' programs seem to be.</p>

<p>And gbesq, thanks for the list. Do you think that there's a correlation between schools that have really successful college-level debate programs, and those that receive high numbers of applications from top high school debaters?</p>

<p>the schools that are consistently best for policy debate are Emory, Northwestern, Harvard, Cal, Dartmouth, Kansas, and Wake Forest. There are, of course, other but these are the schools that come to mind as always having great teams.</p>

<p>Thanks, that's good to know. I'm interested in knowing what schools have strong college-level debate programs, but more so in those which consistently attract large numbers of debaters to apply, regardless of the strength (or existence) of a college program. Do you think that many high school debaters take college-level performance into much consideration when choosing a college? That more of the strongest high school debaters apply to Eastern New Mexico University (in the NDT top 90) than Amherst (not on it)?</p>

<p>I'm surprised no one's mentioned Western Kentucky U. Not necessarily a debate powerhouse, but the top of the heap when it comes to speech, meaning the applicant pool would likely be flooded with the same type of people.</p>

<p>I'd gladly trade to have your problem! The schools I looked at had CX teams, but not parliamentary.</p>

<p>What do you want to study? Is your primary goal to find a really good school where your CX experience will get you through the door? OR do you really want to continue Policy in college?</p>

<p>It's pretty low tier, but you might Look into the University of Illinois. A friend from my team, with very minimal experience in LD, worked her way to a full ride scholarship there within a year for doing CX. I don't know the details, but I imagine they would be in pursuit of good, experienced debaters like you. Good education program. What state are you from?</p>

<p>I know Ohio State also has a CX team. Don't know anything about them except for its existence. It's admissions are pretty lax in the first place though. Good Poli Sci Program.</p>

<p>I have a friend that's a policy debater at Wake Forest (graduating this year). I believe last year they had a team take 2nd at the NDT... it's a pretty successful and intense program, and I know they offer debate scholarships. He's really enjoyed his time there.</p>

<p>Whitman College also has a very active team, and I think they offer up to full tuition scholarships for debaters.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what debating circuit gbesq refers to, but the one that schools like HPYS debate on is the American Parliamentary Debate Association. You can see the standings this year: APDA</a> Web - Standings</p>

<p>Teams of the Year:
1. Bone/Rohrbach (Yale)
2. Kwasniewski/Sheltzer (Princeton)
3. Goldstein/Clark-Adams (MIT)
4. Baer/Mitra (Stanford)
5. Suri/Withall (JHU)
6. Childers/Baia (JHU)
7. Rauch/Shih (Princeton)
8. Hill/Strahs (W&M)
9. Boghosian/Silverblatt (Tufts)
10. Lamboy/Zhou (Amherst)</p>

<p>That gives you an idea of where the top debaters come from - and where you're likely to find good debating programs and talent to help you grow. In addition to perennial powers like Princeton and Yale, schools like W&M and JHU typically produce strong teams consistently.</p>

<p>There was also a College of the Year award introduced to APDA this year, which is given to the school with the best aggregate debate performance in a year. I'm unable to find overall rankings for it, but I believe Princeton tops the list, and if I had to guess, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Harvard, JHU, and W&M probably follow right behind in some order.</p>

<p>U</a>. debate team best in country - The Daily Princetonian</p>

<p>Hey thanks, Silly Puddy. The APDA was what I referring to when I said that most of the schools I looked at seemed to be parliamentary-dominated. I kind of get the sense that just looking at policy rankings to see where debaters end up is skewed, b/c so many schools choose not to do policy.</p>

<p>And thanks to both pretzelbreaker and DCforMe. Heehee, DC, I swear I'm not so limited in my vision as to only care about finding where my CX experience will "get me through the door." :) I have a pretty clearly-defined idea of what I want to study and hope to get out of a college experience, and which schools fit that criteria; my goal in this post was just to figure out how that list overlapped (or didn't) with the schools where my background might be more valued.</p>

<p>So, is the overall conclusion from this thread that a debater applying to selective schools who chooses Northwestern/Dartmouth/Harvard/Emory/Wake or the APDA top 10 listed above is generally doing the same thing as those described in the original post (creative writers choose Sarah Lawrence, philosophers choose Princeton and NYU, etc.)?</p>

<p>Tiny Ripon in Wi is the founder and the headquarters of the Nat'l Forensics League. I assume they have a decent program.</p>

<p>The rankings that I am referring to are for the National Debate Tournament. More information here: National</a> Debate Tournament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>Silly Puddy refers to the American Parliamentary Debate Association. More information here: American</a> Parliamentary Debate Association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>