Sure, that’s technically true. Would it be better if the diversity that is there weren’t there? There’s nothing you can do about the other cohorts. Those kids dealt with them before college and will deal with them again after college.
It’s not perfect, but it’s better than the alternative.
I think that maximizing diversity is great. I don’t think that the Top X schools should become less diverse than they currently are. I’m just saying that if one chooses to go to a Top X school that one is foregoing much in the way of diversity of thought and experience that would be reflected by students with lower GPAs, additional life experiences, negative academic experiences, etc.
Did they? Will they? There was a thread about the importance of attending a diverse college, and one of the points I made there was that diversity at an institution is only beneficial if you’re having meaningful interactions with people who are different from yourself. How many of the students admitted to the Top X colleges are taking classes that aren’t honors/AP/dual enrollment while they’re in high school? And doing “research” at local universities and participating in expensive extracurriculars? And once they graduate from Top X college, what are these students thinking of doing? Medical school, investment banking, and CS, preferably at FAANG companies. I’m not seeing a lot of meaningful interaction there, either.
And lest I give the impression that I am some paragon of diverse interactions, I am not. I remember distinctly when I started 10th grade at a new high school and we hadn’t been able to have me placed in the gifted track yet because the person responsible wasn’t going to be returning until the start of school. I spent half of the first day with the “regular” population and was so overjoyed when I was called to the office partway through the day once everything was fixed that I gave my mom a hug in front of everybody (and as a teen, that was a big deal). As an adult, I’ve gotten to have more interactions with people from a variety of background and realize how much I lost as a result of being in my own academically privileged bubble. It’s one of the reasons we’ve made some of the educational choices we have for our child.
This may not be at all how you intended this to come across, but I want you to know that when I read this your use of the words “dealt with/deal with” came across as very negative toward those who did not have high school resumes exalted enough to attend a Top X school. It felt like you see the others as some sort of trial to deal with that infringes on one’s own bubble. As I shared above, I have rejoiced in my own return to my bubble before. As an adult, however, I realize how wrong my own view was and how much it shortchanged me (and how many problems it is causing in our society today). This may not have been what you meant, but it is how it came across to me.
You are correct: you are inferring intent that is not there. Substitute “dealt” with “interact” and you’ll have what I was trying to say.
As to the rest, I feel like we’re talking in circles. Here’s what I’m saying: you can’t have it all. That’s it. Schools are in the business of schooling, and the mission of some schools is to do it with the best and brightest, and kids who attend those schools get something out of being in a cohort of accomplished peers. It’s not the only way to educate, but it is how those schools educate, and some value that in the market.
I’ll draw a comparison to my team here at work. We want a diverse team with all kinds of backgrounds and experiences and perspectives. But they all need to be the same in one important way: very good at what we do here. I don’t want diversity of ability / performance just so my high performers can appreciate the perspectives of those who don’t / can’t /won’t perform at a high level. I suppose there is something they can learn from those interactions, but it’s not important enough for me to recruit that way.
Thank you for your clarification on what you meant by “deal with/dealt with.”
I understand your point about who you want to hire and making sure they are able to do their job successfully. We will have to agree to disagree on the importance of academic 2%ers interacting with the remaining 98%.
Personally, one positive thing about working in an average public school has been the experience of seeing the whole range of “public” out there. Maybe I should qualify that a little. It’s depressing seeing what some kids have to deal with and it’s depressing seeing what some kids have that they don’t appreciate, but at least I know more of what’s going on in the real world.
In my personal education I was in the top classes and had no idea what others groups were like.
I don’t think we’re doing kids any favors by mixing top academic kids with lower academic kids though. Our world needs both students who can go on and do great academic things and those who head in other directions (preferably not the prison route though). It won’t help our planet if we rein in the top kids. It also won’t help our planet if we try to make everyone head off to college either.
@AustenNut I really appreciated your post about what kind of bubbles we see and which ones we don’t. Kind of like the old joke with the fish not realizing they are surrounded by water. It is very easy to not see what is around you if you are used to it.
I agree that highly rejective schools are themselves their own kind of bubble. But I would express it slightly differently with the idea that almost every residential college is a bubble, intentionally so. They weren’t/aren’t called “The Ivory Tower(s)” for no reason.
Residential college is a separate space (a bubble, if you will) for students to go learn, stretch themselves, expand their viewpoints, etc. etc. in a contained, “safe space”. That is their purpose. Students are supposed to be in an academic bubble during that time, as they become ‘experts’ at some specific topic/field of study. The entire idea of residential college is to create that bubble in order to facilitate learning and introspection before graduating into the ‘real world’.
Unfortunately our ‘real world’ is pretty darn stratified and the bubbles in college can often times continue afterwards as well. We each make bubble choices (expanding them or contracting them) or have them made for us, by where we choose to live (or must live), the jobs we take (or the ones we can get), the houses of worship we choose to attend, the activities we prioritize, etc. Some of these are actual choices, well at least for some people. Others, not so much.
Well, sure, maybe we don’t disagree there. I’m not that demanding. 
2% is a pretty narrow slice.
Oh, I 100% agree with you with respect to academic classes not being mixed-abilities and about sending all students to college. I remember one kid in an honors class I taught who was just head and shoulders above everyone else, and I remember feeling so inadequate because I knew that if he was in a class surrounded by peers like him that he’d be going so much further. My family moved around a lot and there were places where there were separate gifted classes for every academic subject and then other places where everyone was mixed together and gifted students were supposedly pulled out once every week or two for an hour (though I never did get pulled out). I definitely believe in leveling academic classes.
But, back in the day, most students took no more than 4 academic subjects/year (not considering something like journalism or similar which some people might argue is academic). But all the electives were heterogeneously mixed. But when I see these seniors who have 15 APs, they’re filling up their electives with classes that will almost exclusively contain that highly-academic cohort.
I guess my ideal is something similar to how many public colleges are today. There’s an honors program for students who want that environment, or the students already come in with AP/dual enrollment credits and are able to skip ahead to more senior classes with “regular” folk but that is at an academically appropriate level for them. Yet they’re roommates and living on the same floors and participating in intramural basketball and in clubs and other activities with people who have different experiences. So the students who worked full time in high school to pay their family’s bills and thus “only” had a 3.5 GPA or people who needed some time away to discover in what direction they wanted to go in life, or the kid with a 3.0 who earned it by working hard for every percentage point with none of it due to lackadasical efforts, or the kid who couldn’t read until he got to middle school and has since made huge strides…I want my kid around those people. And the flagships usually have their cream of the crop students getting full rides, and those students (at least at my alma mater) always found their intellectual peers…even those without a full ride.
I know when my dad and I moved to FL for a year after my grandfather died in order to help my grandmother adjust to life on her own, I felt like an exchange student at the private school I went to. We couldn’t afford it, but either my grandmother had friends who paid (possible - she was loved in her church and had a lot of wealthier connections due to her running the thrift shop) or I, indeed, got a scholarship (which is what I was told).
I had to test to get in and supposedly passed it easily. I was among the top in my class via grades, so academically there were peers. The fact that my dad made 18K per year at the time and one of my friends told me they “had a painting in their living room that cost more than that,” sort of summarizes the difference. My clothes all came from the thrift shop my grandmother ran. My friends had pocket money to spend $50 on jeans if they wanted to (a fortune at the time). Some of them had ocean front houses, or at the very least, large houses with pools. My grandma lived in a 2/2 on a busy street.
My friends accepted me into their group and we had a bit of fun that year. Once we had the financial talk (when I couldn’t keep up with them), they graciously paid for everything for me (meals, entertainment, etc) so I could go. I accepted rides in their fancy cars, but never offered my grandma as a driver in her old coupe. I went to their houses for study groups or swim parties, but never invited them to mine to hang out. I worked as a groom at the stable where some kept their expensive horses/ponies. They showed, I didn’t - paying for costs didn’t go that far. I also know that not every student in my class considered me a peer, but my friends did. I definitely told them about a life they had no experience with. How much they remembered or carried over into their adult lives I’ll never know because I was only there a year and didn’t stay in touch afterward - the internet wasn’t around for average use at that time.
I suspect the same is true in similar places - like high stat colleges or private high schools - today.
When I was in high school, there were honors tracks in English (10th grade and above leading to AP in 12th grade) and math (leading to AP calculus in 12th grade for +1 accelerated students who made up most of the honors track). Social studies, science, foreign language, arts, and requirements like civics and health were not tracked, although there was one AP science (taken after the regular course), and an AP option for US history (which was only taken by those with the strongest interest in history, not automatically chosen by every academically strong student). Given that about a third of graduates went to four year colleges (with some more going to community college, not necessarily to transfer to a four year college), there was a fair bit of mixing of academic ability levels in most courses outside of English (10th grade and above) and math, although upper levels of math, upper levels of foreign languages, and physics tended to be self-selected for academically stronger students.
But the same high school is much different now. Parent education level and SES are much higher now than then, and probably close to all students aspire to four year college (although some presumably do start at community college with transfer goals). AP courses are also much more numerous now, and the +2 math track is now apparently common, rather than being one “really good at math” student every few years.
I suppose that is one upside to my kids’ HS experience. They were definitely outside their bubble. Once I felt reassured that they would not be targets for violence, I think it is good that they went to school with people from all different kinds of backgrounds. I admit I was grateful that 1/2 the day their final two years was off-site and most of their classes were AP/honors, but not all. They had PE, Spanish 2, finance class, older S took Art, and even their online APs were often done in the back of a regular class. They saw a lot. And now they tell me a lot - even more than they did while in school.
But gang activities aside… they (especially younger S) had friends from a variety of background. While their super tight group from the private K-8 school all went to college, their expanded group did not. Some are in construction. Some are still finding their way. Some of them are here illegally. One hasn’t seen his Dad in years because he went back to try to re-enter legally. One’s dad recently got out of prison - I didn’t know he was even there. Just knew he wasn’t around.
But while their HS life might not have been ideal; I think they have a better sense of the real world than many of their peers.
I guess I’m a little out of step. I grew up in a tough, gang infested neighborhood and high school. Worked my way out so my kids did not need to endure the same. That’s not the real world - that’s an anomaly.
We don’t live in a gang infested area, but in small cities everyone gets lumped together by HS. Not many options.
My kids both have retail jobs and I think that has helped immensely with them seeing “the real world”. One works at Starbucks and they see people who are literally millionaires many times over (who don’t tip, btw) and people who ask to spread around the cost of a single drink on their credit cards because they don’t have enough credit left on any one card to pay for it. Their colleagues are career Starbucks employees, people getting Associates and certificates from Community College, people going back to nursing school or law school, undergrad students, high school students. It’s definitely been an eye opening experience and ultimately great I think.
It used to be you never tip at fast food or fast casual. Now everything asks for tips. It’s uncomfortable. I try to where the svc is more full. Like they bring to u. Sometimes but typically not starbucks. Sometimes u can tell someone is struggling. So I try.
It’s fast. It’s impersonal regardless of how everyone says it’s an experience. Not sure what that is
The people there bust tail tho. Lots of business.
Glad it’s eye opening for your daughter. And that she’s getting fabulous customer service experience and a great name on her resume.
I’m pretty sure it’s because living on the paycheck they’re getting isn’t really possible.
Another bubble many, many don’t understand TBH, esp if they’ve never lived in a situation where working didn’t pay the bills.
And, of course, one can say those jobs shouldn’t be “pay the bills” jobs, but for students, they’re often the only jobs they can get - and yes, some students/adults are paying family bills, not just saving for extras at college or other pocket change.
I’ve shifted my thoughts from “save every penny,” to directed spending (like tips or going to mom/pop places over chains) to help balance things out. If I can’t afford a tip, I don’t eat out or stay in a motel or whatever that would require a tip. It’s rarely the franchise owner or CEO that needs my money to get by.
Working in a public school and seeing all aspects of life has had me changing quite a bit of what I used to believe/do. That’s just one area.
Most people tip at Starbucks according to my barista. But not the millionaire guy. He never tips.
As I said I tip. Maybe at a Greek place that brings my food or Panera. Not at a Mickey Ds. Often not a Starbucks but I don’t go there more than 6x per year. I just don’t get the feel of service there. It’s fast and impersonal. Ours is very crowded.
I was just noting that until 5 or 8 years ago there was not even a thought. Now it comes up on the cc machine.
In my state servers (full serve) make a sub wage…$2.75 an hour so I’m always 20% + bcuz they get screwed.
There used to be argument about minimum wage. Today it doesn’t matter. Minimum a kid makes by me is $14 an hr. Dunkin’ has a banner. $16 an hour.
The labor shortage has jacked up wages.
Or the law. Minimum wage in Denver is $15.77, but in the next county over (across the street in my case) it is the state minimum $12.32 (although many places pay more). Sales tax is also more in Denver county, so if you buy your Starbucks in Denver it may cost $6.95 but in the 'burbs only $6.45. My brother, who never notices the prices of anything, noticed this (big Starbucks junky).
Tips in the 'burbs may actually be higher if people round up their purchases.
By the way, Starbucks pools tips, so the slow moving employee who gets your order wrong is getting the same tips as Mr. Speedy who knows you want a triple pump mocha at kid’s temp.
Tn is $7.25 - no one making less than $13-14 or they are working at the wrong place
I travel for work. Everywhere I go stores, restaurants all have limited hours due to staff shortages.
They r paying. If you are making $7.25 you are doing something wrong.
Of course if you pay more you raise prices and your business could then fail.
But when you have half of outback closed or department stores closing hrs early. A Greek place I just went to in st Pete is closed sat/Sunday….it’s a workers market.
As for Denver, law or not, the wage would be there or close. Even target, Starbucks, wal mart. All of them are there. B of A I think is $21 minimum or maybe that was Wells Fargo.