Can those stats from Harvard really be right? Only 25% of students with families making over $110,000? In 2017, median income was $168,800: Median Family Income for Harvard Undergrads Triple National Average, Study Finds | News | The Harvard Crimson.
I think itās coming down to averages and medians. Here are some selected quotes from the article:
The median family income for Harvard undergraduates is $168,800āmore than three times the national median, according to a recent study.
With an average student at the 79th income percentile, Harvardās median family income was the third-lowest in the Ivy League: Brown, with a $204,200 median family income, ranked first. The national median household income in 2015 was $55,775, according to Census data.
Harvard had the eighth largest proportion of students from the top 1 percent, with 15.1 percent of its undergraduates coming from households making over $630,000 per year.
Still, the study ranks Harvard among the worst colleges nationwide at enrolling lower-income students. With 4.5 percent of students from the bottom 20 percent of the income distribution, Harvard ranks 2011th out of the 2395 schools for its proportion of low-income students.
50% of students come from families where the family income is below $168,800 and 50% have a family income above that (median). But when you take which percentile for income all the students are from and divide by the number of students, youāre coming up at the 79th percentile. When I used this calculator, to get an income at the 79th percentile in 2015, it was an income of $120,000. I used that same calculator to figure out what the 20th percentile was, and it was $24,000. So 4.5% of families earned less than $24x but more than 3x that number are earning in excess of $630k. I think it is unlikely that many families were ājustā above the 630k mark. I suspect that there are lots of families in that group earning 7-figure (or more) household incomes. Thus, that raises the average income percentile to the 79th because their incomes are SO far over on the bell curve that it brings the collegeās median household income higher. I welcome other perspectives on this.
Different note related to bubbles: 20% of American households earned $24,000 or less in 2015. 50% earned less than $59,000. Only 28% of families earned $100,000 or more, and $110,000 is the 75th percentile for income in the U.S. (in 2015). Understanding that fact might help pop some of the bubbles that some people on CC have. (All figures derived using that same calculator.) And per the article, Harvard is one of the best in the Ivy League + (MIT, Stanford, Duke, U. of Chicago) with respect to its financial inclusivity.
Yāknow, one school that my D22 visited and could be considered a bubble by some metrics, but not by other metrics is Agnes Scott College. It is a womenās/non-cis male college, so sort of a bubble there. But it is incredibly diverse racially and economically and regularly ranks up near the top for social mobility, helping women rise up out of poverty. So bubble? Or not a bubble? Depends on which way you look at it.
No itās coming down to reports that are inconsistent with one another. Averages/means have nothing to do with it.
The median in the first quote is $169K, the median in the second is about $65K. At least one of these is incorrect (or is not a representative sample, for example just including students receiving financial aid). My betting is that the second distribution is only for a subset of Harvard students.
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You raise a good point about the data sets. Does anyone know where IPEDS is getting its data from? Is it only based on the number of applicants who applied for financial aid/submitted the FAFSA, and thus excludes all families who did not apply, thus missing a large percentage of the families with high household incomes? @Data10, do you have any light you could shed on this?
Could it be that the percentages of students in those household income levels are the percentages who received financial aid?
After all, the household income levels of those who do not receive financial aid may not be knowable to the college, beyond assuming that they are ātoo high to receive financial aid at this collegeā (other than perhaps some whose college was paid by outside scholarships).
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Wonder what colleges would be best examples of non-bubbles. I suppose large state schools? I liked the thinking above about echo chambers vs bubbles, but when I think of conservative Christian schools vs. a lot of elite colleges, they seem equally āguiltyā of being echo chambers. I myself am a liberal, but I still find fault with the top colleges basically being liberal echo chambers, stifling more conservative thoughts, academics, speakers, etc. Not a lot of dialogue/debate. Students who attend are primarily surrounded by other liberal thinkers. Itās clearly very difficult to be a conservative on a lot of elite campuses, as I imagine itās tough to be a liberal on a conservative campus. Iāve never been to or researched the conservative schools, so I donāt know much about them, but I would think they may be mirror images of certain top schools, perhaps.
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Why are the pejoratives ābubbleā or āecho chamberā used to describe schools where a conservative Christian might feel welcomed? I suspect if the original question had been āwhich school is best for my liberal, atheist childā the word that would be used to describe the college is āfitā? Wouldnāt schools like UVM or Santa Cruz also be just as much of a ābubbleā or āecho chamberā for already liberal, progressive students?
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Yes - every school is a bubble or has a bubble - but some you can define more than othersā¦in my opinion.
When this started on another thread, I mentioned the parents wanted their kid in a bubble (and out of the real world). I wasnāt referencing any school to be a bubble but I suppose each and everyone is.
All colleges are a bubble to a certain degree. As someone said upthread, thatās one of the reasons why universities are called ivory towers. My goal is to have the bubble be as large as possible, or have as many different types of molecules as possible within it (I am not a science personā¦if thereās a better word, let me know).
An echo chamber is where the same comments and ideas keep being made, with no disagreement, just reinforcing one particular point of view.
I have no objections to bubbles (though admittedly, the bigger the better). I do object to echo chambers.
Going back to my post #49 where I list various bits of data for four institutions, I get concerned when there is a population that is fairly widespread in our country that is not present at the university. For instance, I was surprised that only 11% of Harvard students who responded to the Niche survey identified themselves as Republicans. Considering the fact that Republicans make up at least 40% of the population (and arguably half), thatās concerning to me, whether Iām a Republican or not, because thereās a viewpoint that a lot of people in our country hold that students are not getting good, intimate access to. To be able to get to know people as people without having labels attached, and then to be able to have cordial, respectful discussions with differing points of view is one of the essential components of what a college should provide (in my not so humble opinion). I would be equally concerned if only 11% of students at an institution described themselves as Democrats, for the same reason.
I think that echo chambers do have pejorative connotations, and Iām against them whether theyāre progressive or conservative (or any other adjective).
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Young adults generally lean more left than the general adult population.
Also, some young adults who may be right or center right leaning generally (particularly on fiscal and economic issues) may also say that vaccines are good for both individual and public health, LGB people can marry whomever they want, T can use whatever bathroom they want, and minorities and immigrants are not a problem, so they may prefer to call themselves āindependentā because āRepublicanā is too much of an embarrassment to them based on some loudmouths and prominent politicians with opposite views.
But also, the increasing nastiness of politics is causing more people generally (not just college students) to choose to be in political ābubblesā or āecho chambersā.
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Also, partisanship in enthusiasm versus refusal of COVID-19 vaccination can also be a cause of college students sorting into political ābubblesā or āecho chambersā, based on the collegesā COVID-19 vaccination requirements or lack thereof. Note that Harvard requires vaccination (including boosters within 30 days of eligibility).
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This, and where I live, parents who donāt want their kids to attend college at all correlate very strongly with hard right. (NOT saying all those hard right arenāt interested in college - it only works the other way.)
FWIW, when a student tells me they want a conservative or religious fit, Iāve no problem giving them options. Same with the opposite. Weāve had students go to Liberty and Oberlin.
My oldest went to a conservative, very religious, college (Covenant). He got a good education. My youngest went to a liberal, technically religious (but not in reality), college (Eckerd). He got a good education.
Hopefully we can speak about colleges for what they are on a message board without equating āfitā and education received.
Itās not just a mamaās viewpoint either. For his most recent job, oldest had to take a financial analyst test. He scored 2nd best of roughly 25 applicants and he got the job. He learned what he knew at college and the name of the college didnāt stop him from getting the job.
Since youngest has chosen to work for himself, I donāt have a similar non-biased situation, but IMO, he still got a good education.
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Out of curiosity, I looked up a few schools that have reputations for leaning one way or another, including the ones @Creeklandās children attended:
Hillsdale
- 70% Republican
- 10% Democratic
- 20% Independent
Liberty
- 55% Republican
- 9% Democratic
- 15% Independent
- 3% Other party not mentioned
- 18% I donāt care about politics
Furman
- 33% Republican
- 33% Democratic
- 27% Independent
- 7% I donāt care about politics
Covenant
- 55% Republican
- 9% Democratic
- 18% Independent
- 18% I donāt care about politics
Oberlin
- (No percentage for Republicans in the survey results; presuming 0% identified themselves that way)
- 53% Democratic
- 21% Independent
- 11% Other party not mentioned
- 16% I donāt care about politics
UC Berkeley
- 3% Republican
- 57% Democratic
- 15% Independent
- 3% Other party not mentioned
- 21% I donāt care about politics
American (rated by Niche as the most liberal college in the U.Sā¦.though its methodology is curious)
- 12% Republican
- 59% Democratic
- 19% Independent
- 1% Other party not mentioned
- 9% I donāt care about politics
Eckerd (I find Nicheās methodology curious since Eckerd has more Democrats and fewer Republicans (percentage-wise) than American, but the methodology does give 20% to how students label the political feel of their campus)
- 8% Republican
- 65% Democratic
- 15% Independent
- 12% I donāt care about politics
I realize that younger students skew more towards the Democratic party than the Republican party. But when thereās 3-20x as many of one party than the other, things feel lopsided to me. Iād probably go so far as to suggest that as part of collegesā holistic admissions they should try to have a variety (and somewhat representative, or at least not totally lopsided) variety of political persuasions within their student body. Of course, I realize that system could be gamed.
Going strictly by the percentages here, I like Furman as it seems pretty balanced, though Independents are a big category with a range of views, and if the vast majority of Furmanās independents leaned strongly in one direction or another, it could definitely impact the feel of the campus. I think that surveys like this one could be used to help point out which schools might be political echo chambers.
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Being a majority-minority state school in California, the above is not that surprising.
Eckerd advertises itself with the motto Think Outside and ranks among the top of the top for their size in producing Peace Corps volunteers. Students there tend to care a lot about the planet (as did/does my son). While there were definitely some when my guy attended - usually attracted by the beach or sports or the fact that the school is really good with science - one isnāt going to attract a lot of Republican applicants to even have the option to accept them. Independents who care about the planet, but might shift red on other aspects of politics are more common - or at least were in my guyās day.
Covenant obviously attracts the religious right, but it also gets students whose parents make them choose a religious school, and then they have a program working with world poverty issues (Chalmers Center). The latter is what attracted my guy. I wouldnāt guarantee that all of those would lean red, at least, not on everything.
Thereās some diversity at most places, but what they choose to focus on isnāt going to give small schools a wide range of applicants to even try to make it 50/50.
Personally I think more tend to go blue than red simply because thatās the way the stats are among those with higher education. Again, itās tough to try to make something 50/50 when the actual people arenāt out there for staffing as well as applying. Within majors (business vs social issues) youāre likely to have a divergence within schools as well. Itās the way the US is - not any particular conspiracy going on.
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