Colleges Ward Off Overinvolved Parents

Parents Forum
181

<p>18, 19, and away from home for the first time, I think parents should be listening to their college student's tales of woe with a cynical ear - because it is hard for students to learn how to handle all of their 'life business' on their own, they are often tempted to call home with the exagerated version of their problems to see if they can provoke us into jumping in to fix everything for them so that they don't have to deal with it - it makes their lives easier in the short term, but kids who can't handle the deadlines and negotiations that college life throws at them are kids whose parents have stepped into every problem the kids have had and found a way to fix it for them, and who know that that is the easiest way, or who have helicopter parents that have deliberately turned their kids into passive and boring individuals.</p>

<p>I cringe every time I see a parent post a sentence like, "If I didn't do XXXXXXXX for my child, it would never get done." Well, it is time for it to never get done, then, because otherwise, what? When do you get to stop living their life for them? When the parent is always actively taking care of business for their children, those children become passive, and their problems are often spun into stories where they are the victim of .... roommate from hell/administration from hell/inhumane professor, etc. It is very disheartening to see them be so infantalized.</p>

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<p>I'd just like to commend again Texas's extremely wise comments a few posts ago, about the arbitrariness of picking a date at which all kids should be absolule grownups, and that any help at all will ruin them for life. I can safely say now, looking backwards as the mom of an almost 23 year old who's quite adult now, that some advice, a sympathetic ear, and sometimes a little help, certainly didn't ruin or infantalize her, nor do I see that with her younger brother.</p>

<p>I also bristle at the somewhat patronizing notion that kids routinely exaggerate problems for attention. Having had a certified psychotic roommate myself, I would have liked someone to have taken my plight seriouslly. The college was busy trying to protect the roommate (who'd walked out of an asylum she'd been placed in for attacking someone else).</p>

<p>And finally, I don't see the money on a phenomenal educational experience "wasted" because a student may not be an entirely functional adult from the start. Actually, I don't get the logical connection there at all. Both my kids have soaked up their college educations...I don't see a conflict between that and the occasional request for advice on registration or whatever.</p>

<p>Again, to echo Texas, this whole thread is just like new parent advice, the subtheme being--if you don't do things just like I did, your kids will be failures. Let's be a little less hard on each other.</p>

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<p>I hope that since I will be there for my children, when they ask for help/advice, at 8 or 18, or even 28, maybe they will in turn be there for me, when I am 80, and senile, and regressing into a second childhood, and not say, "Hey Ma, you've been an adult for 62 years now, don't bug me." :eek:</p>

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<p>It does seem that, as other parents have said or implied, 18 years old is a fairly arbitrary number, set by some legislators and attorneys somewhere, as to when a human being in the US should be independent and fully able to function. Some young people have that lightbulb lit up at age 14, and can easily maneuver systems, and others aren't ready until they are 20, or older. If a parent can help in useful ways to interpret a system such as college, then what is the harm? Some young people just can't do it, so is it better for them to fail, or live at home for developmental years, work, join Americorps, or just plain ask Mom or Dad for help while adjusting while awaay at college? There are probably as many different answers as there are parents, but I, for one, am honored to give that help to a young person, my child or another if possible. </p>

<p>By the way, although your child signs a waiver, it may not always get recorded properly in all of the right areas of the college, and then it is up to the ethic of the college as to whether a parent is included in things like whether a payment got there, or if their child is in a coma. Some colleges will encourage students to share events with parents, others do not. The lawsuit at MIT concerning the suicidal girl was remarkable because her dormmates were taking turns doing suicide watches, and the parents were not informed. That seemed like a lot of responsiblity for other students, and someone should have shifted it to the parents. There could not have been a worse outcome, and that is often what colleges fail to recognize, that parents often are their children's greatest allies. Asking for parental help/guidance during stressful times is not always a bad thing for a student to do. Many colleges/universities don't have the resources anyhow to help so many troubled students at once, and done the right way, parents can be a good adjunct.</p>

185

<p>
[quote]
The lawsuit at MIT concerning the suicidal girl was remarkable because her dormmates were taking turns doing suicide watches, and the parents were not informed. That seemed like a lot of responsiblity for other students, and someone should have shifted it to the parents.

[/quote]

I could see that representatives of the college (dorm parents, health center) might have felt hamstrung by the privacy laws. But that wouldn't apply to other students. I wonder if any of the girl's friends tried to contact her parents? That's laying a lot of responsibility onto 18 years olds also, but not as much as they assumed by doing suicide watches.</p>

186

<p>texas-
When a person is ACUTELY dangerous to themselves or others, the privacy issues go out the window. If MIT felt that this student was acutely dangerous, they had every right to breach confidentiality. The safety of the student comes first. The privacy issue comes second. This has been the law in virtually every state as far as I know for a very long time.</p>

187

<p>There was a very detailed article about this case in the NYTimes magazine during the past 1-2 years. This young lady was severely depressed, and MIT health service was following her for this. She had a history of severe depression, and had sought treatment for this in the past, under the auspices of her family. Her friends and dormmates knew of her suicidal ideation. MIT chose not to tell her parents what was going on, and it is, of course, unclear as to well the health services was screening her or following her for her depression, although she had been there several times. There is also the question as to whether the MIT health service should have had her involuntarily committed due to her severe depression, and how much they missed or undertreated. This is why there is such a large lawsuit against them.
It is simply not true that all universities and colleges throw out confidentiality during extreme circumstances. It depends on the institution, and what advice they are getting as to their legal vulnerability. If a young woman has severe complications of an unwanted pregnancy, and is bleeding and requiring surgery, she can easily refuse that her parents be told, even if she is requiring aggressive treatment. This is the same for all problems related to alcohol, drugs, medical complications, academic probation, etc, etc. The universities feel that their number 1 responsibility is to the student. Sometimes some institutions will push or advise students to sign releases so the college personnel will be able to speak with parents, but others have the attitude that students are legally independent people, and that parental involvement is not needed, necessary, or legally possible.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It is simply not true that all universities and colleges throw out confidentiality during extreme circumstances

[/quote]
This is not accurate. It is within the mental health and medical system that confidentiality is not an issue when the person is, and I repeat, ACUTELY at risk of harming themselves and others. This is in part why MIT is being sued. I have the article from the NYT. Lovely pictures of her burned clothes and undergarments on the floor. I'll reread it later andreview where the MH ttrreatment fell apart. I think she was briefly hospitalized but discharged.</p>

189

<p>Let me clarify something. When a persone is acutely dangerous, it is OK to disclose confidential information. This doesn't mean to blab anything and everything. There is, of course, discretion involved. However, it allows some leeway for the MH professionals as they work to protect the safety of the client (or of another, if the client has a plan to harm someone else.) The latter refers to the "duty to warn", but thats another subject. Also, if memory serves me, there is a statute in Mass. about the "loco parentis" rules, and how they apply to college students, even over the age of 18. I believe it was an old law on the books, but still very pertinent to the meat of this lawsuit with MIT.</p>

190

<p>I have been in the "health professions" for many years, and what is thrown out at that point is the ability for a patient to refuse treatment, ie involuntary commitment. Violating confidentiality is not legally allowed at any point. What I was speaking about was encouraging a student to involve their parents or whether to risk breaking confidentiality.
I will not be geting into a running dialogue at this point, as I have successfully been working with students for 25 years, and think I have a clear idea of what works and what doesn't. This just confirms my initial instincts that an anonymous Internet forum is not the place for me, except perhaps for very specific factual information. Good luck to you all, and your children!</p>

191

<p>Collefialmom-
I too am in the MH profession. I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I believe we are sayint the same thing.</p>

192

<p>violating confidentiality is allowed if the person is a danger to themselves or others. that needs to be determined by the appropriate person however, such as a psychiatrist or judge. a suicide watch is obviously a danger to oneself, and I have not read the article, was there a psychiatrist involved? what an awful outcome, to put it very clinically. I think this is what many of us fear when we do become involved, that if we don't assist bad things will happen. it's just too crazy out there anymore.</p>

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<p>Theotherside wrote, "I cringe every time I see a parent post a sentence like, 'If I didn't do XXXXXXXX for my child, it would never get done.' Well, it is time for it to never get done, then, because otherwise, what? When do you get to stop living their life for them?"</p>

<p>I like the idea! Why not just legally emancipate your children at 17 or 18 and send them on their way to sink or swim. Let them experience the growth of finding a way to pay for college. In fact, if all financial connections with their parents have been severed legally, they may actually be eligible for more financial aid. In any case, they will have grown far more than pampered children of parents who paid for their college and otherwise stayed involved in their lives.</p>

<p>Or, if you are not quite up to cutting your child adrift completely, why not just give them the $200,000 accumulated or borrowed for college and let them do with it what they will. If they make bad decisions and squander the money, imagine the beneficial life lessons they will learn! If they knuckle down and use the money for college, so much the better. </p>

<p>Perhaps they will be like Edwin Land who took the tuition money his parents sent him for Harvard and instead secretly used it to set up the lab that yielded Polaroid cameras and film. He never did graduate, but did receive an honorary doctorate from Harvard some years later. I assume he paid his parents back, with interest.</p>

194

<p>Upon rereading my earlier post from just before 5:00 PM, I realized that it may have come across more snide than humorous, as was intended.</p>

<p>I also recognize the dilemma for parents who shell out big bucks for schools with inadequate or unresponsive service systems as described in this thread. I don't know how I would have reacted. I surely would have found it hard to sit on my hands if our sons had gone somewhere that denied them EVERY course they requested as freshmen, assigned them a gobbledygook schedule, and refused to even discuss the issue with them, as happened to one young man we know. He hasn't even matriculated yet, and it is already apparent that he will be unlikely to graduate in eight semesters ... with his parents simply continuing to shell out the dollars.</p>

<p>We, on the other hand, had it easy. West Point made almost every decision for us. Our twin sons were legally emancipated the moment they took their oath on the Plain on 01 July 2001. They were USMA's to do with as they wished, 24/7, for the next forty-seven months, until graduation on 28 May 2005. About the only involvement available to us was to lend a sympathetic ear on the infrequent occasions our sons were allowed to contact us (as David Lipsky wrote in Absolutely American, his 2003 NY Times best seller about West Point, cadets are epic complainers). Even later, when restrictions on communication were relaxed, there was nothing we could actually DO to help them (exceptions include serious injury, surgery, etc., during which USMA even provides on-post housing for visiting parents). The longest stretch they were ever home over that forty-seven months was about twenty days one summer. We set aside their college money, in their names, for grad school if they decide to get out of the Army after their five-year minimum obligation, for a down payment on a house, or for any other purpose they choose down the road. Then we sat back and watched their progress from afar. </p>

<p>We had peace of mind because we knew that, even though USMA left us no avenue to interfere, they do provide comprehensive and proactive support services and systems. USMA expects every cadet to manage his/her own affairs ... excuses simply are not tolerated (one of only four permitted responses for a new cadet or plebe, "No excuse, Sir/Ma'am!"). They do, however, provide cadets with the tools they will need. Parents are even strongly discouraged from doing their cadets' taxes for them, but USMA provides face-to-face access to accountants (cadets receive a small taxable salary while at USMA, and have work related expenses they must pay out of it). JAG lawyers are available if they need them. A cadet we knew lost his parents to an auto accident and the support he received from his classmates, the Corps of Cadets, the USMA administration, the chaplains, and the psychiatric staff was wonderful to see. A JAG lawyer even assisted the cadet with estate issues. They do take care of their own. </p>

<p>For example, academic advisors, Company Tactical Officers (in this context, roughly equivalent to dorm parents), the cadet chain of command, and coaches receive weekly academic progress reports on every cadet under their charge and will intervene to direct a lagging cadet to appropriate help. The only stipulation is that the cadet must ask for the help him/herself ... nobody will order them to ask (though certain privileges may be withdrawn to "give the cadet more time to address the problem"). Similar systems are in place for the other areas in which a cadet may get in trouble. USMA assumes that if they admitted a cadet, s/he has the cerebral, intestinal, and moral wherewithal to graduate. </p>

<p>That, combined with the extensive support systems available, means that academic, conduct, or honor review boards are very unsympathetic to cadets who get in serious trouble. For example, no cadet can graduate with even one course failure on his/her record. Fail one course, and you may be permitted to make it up during an intense 4-week Summer Term Academic Program; fail two courses in any one year and you almost certainly will be separated from the Academy. You can't drop a course you have started. Our sons had two friends who did not graduate with their class because they each failed a course during their last semester ... they graduated in a small ceremony three weeks later after making up the course at STAP. A couple years ago, a class president was separated just days before graduation due to an honor violation (The Honor Code: A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.). </p>

<p>The consequences of separation are significant, especially after the start of junior year. After that, a cadet separated for any reason other than a disqualifying physical condition owes Uncle Sam a prorated share of the $350,000 we taxpayers spend to send each cadet through West Point -- plus three years active duty as an unpromotable Specialist Fourth Class.</p>

<p>I realize that no civilian college could afford to provide the kind of comprehensive and proactive support systems found at the services academies ... except perhaps for recruited athletes. But if they could, parents would have far fewer reasons ... and far fewer excuses ... to be "over-involved." As it is, the line between being overprotective and being fiscally irresponsible with a $200,000 "investment" is very tricky.</p>

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<p>Laxdad:</p>

<p>It is my understanding that the service academies offer superb support and have very clear expectations of the students. There is much less student autonomy but also much less floundering about.
I would never dream of contacting my S's profs over anything (even though I might know some of them personally).. But I would certainly contact the college, all the way to the president, if I learned that my child was expected to sleep in corridors or in common rooms, or was put in a dangerous situation (I don't mean the physical training students in academies must undergo).</p>

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<p>I think the key is using the first eighteen years to prepare the children to be responsible when they are at college and to have the skills to deal with the situations. Some of that is discussing the college choice with them, looking at statistics like 4 year matriculation rates and realizing that a large state U is going to be more of a sink-or-swim situation than a small LAC. But to prepare them you have to let them deal with their own messes, of appropriate scale, from childhood on. We have not worried about our childrens' ability to select classes since they have done it by themselves since 9th grade. Through HS we had to sign for their selection but we never changed, or requested, they change a thing. The same has been true for conflicts with teachers, bosses etc. We have been there to offer advice and suggest options but acting on them has been their responsiblity.</p>

<p>I agree that college costs are outrageous and the risk of a child failing when it costs 40k a year is very scary. We have told our children that if their grades weren't good enough, their maturity wasn't sufficient or we felt that they were too unfocused/unmotivated that they would start at the local cc. We weren't prepared to waste those sums if we didn't think they were likely to be successful. I have had too many conversations with parents who doubt their child's readiness to go off to college but they just shrug their shoulders and cross their fingers.</p>

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<p>Laxdad, the idea is to do what is best for the child, in each part of the situtation. On one hand, that involves paying the bulk of his education. On the other hand, it involves allowing your child to figure things out for yourself. I am sorry if these two concepts cannot exist together in your mind.</p>

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<p>LaxDad said this: "I like the idea! Why not just legally emancipate your children at 17 or 18 and send them on their way to sink or swim."</p>

<p>I think a good sign of helicopter parents are those that are prone to overexaggeration about how 'suddenly' and 'arbitrarily' at 18 our children are considered adults and have to make all of their own decisions.</p>

<p>The point is, we should have spent the past 18 years preparing them to be ready to slide into the driver's seat of their lives and take control, and we should be preparing ourselves to get out of the driver's seat and go sit in the back, watch the DVD player, and occasionally call out a little advice or encouragement. If they aren't ready to assume control of their own lives by the time our society has deemed them legal adults, we have failed them as parents, because we have shown ourselves to have chosen to make their lives about us and our needs, instead of them and theirs.</p>

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<p>What is so magical about 18?</p>

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<p>Many kids are still in high school at that age.</p>