I also think it will depend a lot on the school. Visiting Indiana on a football Saturday would be much different than visiting Ann Arbor on a football Saturday.
@tennisswimvball Since you recently saw so many schools, can you comment on the others as well. Thanks!
Speaking of football, I was having a discussion with some other parents the other day and we all know students who picked their school partially on the basis of it having a good football team, even though they didn’t play. I’m mystified why the record of a school’s football team should matter to anyone who isn’t on the team. Yeah, I get that it’s fun to go to games and fun to have your school’s team win. But important enough that you’d pick it over a better academic schools – which these kids did? Is the tuition for the education or the parties? Again, I get the latter go with the package, but should they define it?
How much better academically was the other school and how is that determined? What is the intended major/career goals? Any cost difference between the schools?
@civitas A lot would be dependent on the similarities between the academics. While academics is important, if a student can find a school that is an academic fit , as well as a social fit, that’s great . Students with a good balance between academics and social activities , tend to do well in school. It all depends on the student. A student that " defines it" shows a great deal of self awareness IMO.
Most HS kids can’t consider that their college years will be over in the blink of an eye, and they’ll be left with their education and contacts. But since they can get a good education at most every school (and the rest is up to them), perhaps choosing based on a sports or other whim is okay (assuming match or reach is chosen).
Yeah, while a student CAN get a good education at almost any college, it depends on whether they are trying. I was at UCLA when we had a great team, but it had nothing to do with why I was there. But I saw a lot of kids who did well enough in high school to get in who become totally preoccupied with the party scene and barely scraped by academically. It was interesting for me, because I did better academically in college than high school because, among other reasons, the collect student body, in my opinion, lowered the bar.
There were a few examples of the specific schools. The example that came to mind was someone who could have gone to Cornell or U. of Texas (both out of state for him) who chose Texas because of the sports culture, enough though he wasn’t on any teams. It wasn’t economics or a particular major or location, he straight up said he wanted a school that was more into social events around the sports events.
People make decisions regarding schools for a variety of reasons. Not for us to judge.
@STEM2017 I visited UNC on the day of the national championship game this year. Insane school spirit during our visit, every student and professor was wearing Carolina blue. The next day was 22 degrees cooler (!) and the students’ attitude had cooled as well. That said, I thought they all dealt very well with such a disappointment.
It’s not about judging, it’s more curiosity at the rationale. I’m glad people pick schools for a variety of reasons or we would have an even greater imbalance than we already do for admission competition.
A decent football team with a lot of school spirit is one of my D’s college must haves. Coming from a high school where football is a huge part of the high school experience, she can’t imagine college without that experience. So what do we do? We find schools that have decent football teams with a lot of school spirit + meets her academic goals. It doesn’t have to be one or the other given the overwhelming number of good colleges in this country. And she’ll do best where the social activities she enjoys are available. She does great in high school and goes to practically every football game (home and away).
To each their own.
Many kids care about the whole environment. I think knowing what they see as the whole experience that they want should never be discounted. My child may well refuse to consider schools where the campus look (or climate or geography) does not appeal to him regardless of the program strength. Unless those were the ONLY schools that offered what he is looking for, I see no reason for those not to be reasonable disqualifiers.
Generally if a child is happier at a school for whatever reason it is that makes them happier, even if it is perceived by some as “less”, they will perform better. Choosing to party rather than study is a totally different thing in my opinion and could really happen anywhere. That is less about fit then about self discipline. It can also come about from a too restrictive or sheltered HS experience.
My S could care less about college sports and really thought he wanted to avoid schools that were known for that. As we have toured, it’s been less of an issue than expected. YMMV
@Citivas & londondad…several points re princeton & NDame:
The ridiculously small " town" at ND is not South Bend, it’s that Truman Show strip of stores they built next to campus a decade or 2 ago. I’m sure it improves things vastly over the previous situation (NOTHING near campus), but still, compared to an actual small town like at Colgate or Dartmouth it is sorta ridiculous.
Ive told the story before about taking my kid to see Princeton…kiddo grew up in a town where everybody knew everybodys business, and wanted a school big enough to have a bit of anonymity…so if there was any sort of embarrassing event the entire college wouldn’t know about it the next day, or if there was some irritating person you wanted to avoid, you could avoid them. We wandered around campus and explored the little strip of stores, and kiddo took it off the list because in our wanderings we went by the same lady 3 times…which proved to kiddo it was too small. Colgate, despite being smaller, didnt seem as claustrophobic…but neither of my kids applied to it.
@moooop Your description of Princeton doesn’t resemble the Princeton I know. Not speaking to the campus per se but the college town. You describe a “little strip of stores” but I’m not sure what you are referring to. The shopping district across the street from the campus is about 12 blocks long and several blocks deep, with easily 15-20 restaurants, 50-100 shops a dozen or more specialty food places like candy shops, ice cream, cupcake shops, etc. It’s large enough that they have 3 dedicated multi-level paid parking garages to handle the demand in addition to all the street traffic. On a weekend evening you’ll easily encounter a thousand people walking in the shopping district at any given time. And that’s just counting the portion of it immediately adjacent to the footprint of the campus, though Nassau Street continues on as a commercial district for miles beyond it. The Township of Princeton itself is over 30,000 people, and it being in Central NJ means the moment you cross the border you are in another town at least as big in any direction – there is not unpopulated county land between towns. Princeton is on the border of two county that have about 350,000 people each and near another county (they are all small and congested in Central NJ) with another 850,000 people. So if you were to draw a circle say 15 miles around from the center of Princeton you’d be looking at in excess of a million people. Hardly rural, small or devoid of people. I can’t speak to your experience – maybe you toured in the middle of a weekday in summer when school was out of session and everyone else was working. But you clearly didn’t actually explore the walkable shopping district right next to the campus if you thought it was a small strip.
We found out that the size of the school was an important factor for our D16. Coming from a small school with no school spirit she didn’t realize that she doesn’t want to attend a small schools anymore until she felt claustrophobic attending two schools admitted students days. Also proximity to cultural venues was an important factor for her.
We’ve looked at schools with two children who are very different in skills and interests. Here are the results in aggregate:
UP
Boston University
Put this at the top because it unexpectedly moved up for both of them after visiting – they both were attracted to the location in the heart of Boston (museums/concert halls + Fenway Park) and the strength of the specific programs they’re interested in (education and engineering/music).
Brown
Perfect in D’s eyes: eclectic, creative, homey; loved the open curriculum, which she thought she wanted at the time.
Wesleyan:
Excellent tour guides seemed to know everyone we passed – gave DD the impression of a social, intellectual haven. Right size for her + close to Boston.
GW
Appealing safety for D – location + programming + friendly, upbeat guides who highlighted the internship possibilities. Pretty sure she wouldn’t have applied if she hadn’t visited.
Yale
Lively tour guide, also from CA, communicated Yale’s virtues/resources exceptionally well: the emphasis on exploration, the house system, and fun/sweet student traditions. Gorgeous campus. Shot to the top of S’s list after visit.
Vanderbilt
Great messaging: Ivy in the SEC/happy students. All of the staff were welcoming and accommodating. Really nice freshmen dorm rooms and dining halls. Great classroom/lab facilities. Random student came up to us to say how much he liked it – and gave a long list of substantive reasons.
USC
Helped S realize he’s a city kid. Impressed by new buildings, alumni support, possibility of merit. A more substantial, intellectually ambitious school than he realized.
UCLA
West LA is beautiful as is the campus and the dorms on the hill. S liked the energy and diversity, school spirit, and STEM/music programming.
BC
D loved size, campus style and location, lack of Greek system, emphasis on service, and School of Education. She’s there and is now grateful for challenging core requirements! S thought BC was “nothing special” and won’t apply.
STAYED THE SAME
Stanford
Neither D nor S was particularly impressed by the tour. D thought her guide had a lot of 'tude (which unfortunately reinforced her preconception that Stanford students are all full of themselves) and the campus too spread out. S just didn’t learn anything new. But he will still throw his hat in the ring in the fall.
Harvard
Statistically, historically impressive – big. S noticed that all the students looked unhappy. Wonder if he’ll apply?
MOVED DOWN
Pomona
Beautiful campus and very appealing focus on teaching, but S thought campus seemed dead, especially compared to his large, vibrant public HS. No fans at the football game. Made him realize that he wants a lively sports culture. Killed the possibility of adding any LACs to his list, which I’ve had a hard time accepting!
UCSD
Even with the college system, D decided it was too big for her and crossed off all other UCs after visiting here. S really liked it – the contemporary architecture, access to the beach, and strong STEM departments – but it kept moving down the list as he saw other schools that he preferred.
UVA
Loved the architecture, but too big for D.
Princeton
Remote/severe AD and lackluster tour guide made S wonder if anyone is happy at this school. Tour emphasized history of school (which is interesting, of course) but said too little about how current undergraduates work and play.
I recommend that families start early (summer before Jr year) and visit local schools to determine child’s priorities: size, location, program, culture. Keep notes! Once those priorities are set, then you can do a lot of research on the web.
I’ve found it very reassuring to visit campuses because mostly I come away thinking, wow, there’s a lot of great work going on here, these are some lucky students, and I can see my child being happy here.
@Curiousermama , as I always err on the side of caution, by any chance did your kids visit at least one true safety? GWU has an acceptance rate of 39%, so your kids might be okay, depending on stats, and BU is at 29%. All the others are reaches for everyone, unless you live in California. Usually a true safety is thought of as having an acceptance rate closer to 50-60%. And I personally get very nervous assuming that BU is a safety. If your kids have the stats, it might be a match. Kids don’t always get into match schools. My D was WLed at one, but then was accepted. GWU deferred tons of great applicants this year. D’s good friend, excellent student, with stats that should have been a perfect match, was deferred ED, then denied. I urge your son to find at least one more match and safety school. I would hate to see a thread such as those seen every April called “my kid didn’t get in anywhere.”
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Compilation of a few tours:
Up:
McGill - my S’12 was interested in their music department so our tour was limited to all things music. He liked the tour, and loved Montreal. I thought the campus was beautiful, urban yet has its own place in the city. It helped that it was a nice sunny day. McGill is like a large state school (think University of Wisconsin) where no one will hold your hand. So, not a good choice for those who need that. But, I can’t think of too many cities better than Montreal for 4 years of college.
WPI - D’15 visited twice. Both times, we were impressed with the presentation, the tours, the people in general. The students seemed to take pride in their school and spoke positively about their experience there (except the food). D got the sense the professors enjoyed teaching and noted camaraderie between professors and students. She liked the opportunity to travel abroad built into the curriculum, She got the impression the 7-week term was intense and would not be a great choice for a procrastinator (she is not so it worked for her).
RPI - I dragged D’15 to RPI as we are somewhat local and she wasn’t interested in staying close to home. She liked it more than expected. Campus was nice, engaging tour guide, informative admissions presentation. So, it goes on the “moved up” list. However, D did not get a sense of a warm community there.
Same:
U of Rochester - D’15 expected to like it as it is a popular choice from our area, and she did. Beautiful campus, even in lousy weather. Excellent tour guide who was full of useful information. We hopped on a bus that toured the campus. This was accidental as we got on the wrong bus, but it was serendipitous that we learned a lot by watching the students and where they got on and off. There is a lot of activity surrounding the hospital, so it seems like a great place for someone interested in the life sciences. The admissions talk was not very good, and admissions in general seemed a bit disorganized. They had no record of my D’s registration for the tour. She had her paperwork with her, and they just let her re-register. We overlooked it since we liked everything else about it.
Stevens Institute - Not sure where to place this. We were surprised by how nice the campus was with its amazing views of NYC, and we loved Hoboken (sadly waited a little too long in line at Carlo’s Bakery). So, it moved up for the NYC connection. However, we didn’t get a good feel for the community since we unfortunately visited over the summer and the campus was dead. D and I weren’t sure it was the right academic fit for her. Therefore, she felt neutral about it.
U of Hartford - S’12 liked the music side of U of Hartford. He spent time talking with a music professor and sat in on a class. In general, we got the feeling the music department would present a lot of opportunities and was very nurturing. H and I were not impressed with the campus at all. It did not seem well cared for. There were some nice spots, but it needed work overall.
Down:
RIT - I personally was impressed with RIT. It’s large enough that there are a lot of options academically. But, after visiting U of Rochester, she decided she wanted a greener campus, and RIT is not that. I thought the students all looked happy and engaged in their work. There were a lot of work spaces where we saw groups gathered working together, The newer buildings were well-designed and equipped. I think for an engineering student, there is a lot of opportunity there. The down vote was strictly based on the campus
itself.
Claremont Consortium moved down. Too smoggy, too hot and too many really nerdy people. Could have been that those were the kids who stayed at school over the summer.
Cal Poly Pomona moved way down. They are building a HUGE parking lot which screams commuter school.
Santa Clara stayed the same - nice private school. Couldn’t get a truthful answer as to how many kids commute and what type college community is around campus but the campus was very clean, admissions director was enthusiastic as were the tour guides. Admissions director dodged the financial aid question by joking that parents should look out the window and think about the sunny day and the smile on their kids’ faces rather than focusing on cost. I think that issue could have been better addressed.
You cannot afford NOT to send your kids here!!!