Is $15 (or $7.50) per year more or less than the average college student raises in charitable contributions per year?
This has devolved into an anti-fraternity thread, and probably should get transferred to one. Its fitting, since that really is what the Rolling Stone “article” was.
I just read the Columbia report and it was generally useless. The technical parts of it were decent, but a minor part of the story. As I read it, I thought that it wasn’t really a report, but rather a story about the story. And indeed, at the end, in the first footnote, they said exactly that.
I didn’t think it was likely that Rolling Stone would be sued over this, but now I believe that they will be, and also that they deserve to be. The plaintiffs should be UVa and the fraternity, and also the officers at UVa who were named in the article.
The press conference held by Columbia ended with the guy in charge of the report using the word “irregardless”, which was just too precious. 
I only saw the last 3-4 minutes, so will have to watch it to see if most of it was as worthless as the last few minutes.
The only reason that anyone in journalism cares about this at all is that it tarnishes their standing and influence. It is regrettable, and would have been surprising a long time ago, but those days are gone.
Does not matter to me, the average student is not touting how much money they give to charitable organizations.
It looks like the fraternity is going to sue;http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/phi-kappa-psi-plans-sue-rolling-stone-over-discredited-uva-n336541
Decide somehow,
Where I’m from, $5.3million is a lot of money.
With all due respect, TransferGopher, your answer boils down to “It is unfair to target everyone when there are a only a few misbehaving” and more similar platitudes.
It is really not that complicated. People here and elsewhere have pointed out to a number of accounts that are quite precise. I asked YOUR opinion about the events from 2010 to 2012 at your school, and your answer was that you did not know much or anything about it but that the fraternity was “doing well” in terms of security as far as you know.
This is not the same thing as offering an opinion if that fraternity should still be on campus after their past problems. If that is too close to home, how about you telling us your opinion about the fraternity that caused the death of my friend, Gordie Bailey in 2004? What would have been the just punishment and do you think that chapter should be --as it is-- presenting a glossy image of its participation in Boulder.
Again, it is not that hard. A simple answer such as "No, they should have never be allowed to restart – or Yes, everyone deserves a second chance.
And we could repeat that on a monthly basis as the evidence is that those isolated incidents tend to be quite repetitive.
PS Please note that the same “test” could be applied to jocks, marching bands members, etc. It is not about singling out frats and ignoring the other perennial abusers. As you might know, I also happen to think that the fact that PSU is still playing football is a pure disgrace. Saturday’s SNL skit was brilliant in that regard. Here it is:
“Lost? Sure it started out good, but I haven’t seen a final season that bad since Joe Paterno.” Atkinson dryly delivered, causing the crowd to moan. “If you don’t like that joke, just do as Joe did and turn a blind eye.”
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pattisonave/Saturday-Night-Live-rips-Joe-Paterno.html#QGf6EBZEidLDMePE.99
@xiggy - it’s all good. I do know where you stand. Just like it is clear from my posts my views on things. We agree way more than we disagree. So this next comment is not directed toward you
Generalizations never bode well. I think for the most part it is not the fraternities but the spoiled, entitled “boys” that belong to some of them and feel that they can do and say almost anything with impunity. But while a problem that must be dealt with, there are other" fraternal orders" that fall into the same category: police departments, sports teams, religions/religious orgainizations, big businesses. All at one time or another have been broad brushed because of the actions of a few bad apples. Do I think all police are corrupt and racist - No? But you would sure get that impression from current news. Do I think that all football players abuse their significant others? You would think so if you watch ESPN. We need to step back and deal with the problem which is often too much alcohol on campus and young adults who have been pampered their whole lives and feel that they are entitled to a good time at everyone else’s expense.
Is $15 per year more or less than the average college pays per fraternity member to handle the extra vandalism and policing costs, and the extra security, and the legal settlements, caused by the existence of fraternities? $15 per person, if that is the true number, is remarkably low. How many hours per person do fraternity members spend on charity?
Tperry. I agree. But should that not mean we ought to be determined to react with vigor (and justice) to proven incidents, and do our best to separate the real cases from the ones that are painted with the thick brush of generalities?
Nobody can pretend to be an angel at all times. This is not expected from teenagers, and especially not the overprotected and entitled ones. All the freedom given to college students at their tender age also ought to come with a modicum of responsibilities.
How much does the average college student donate to charity as compared to the cost to the college of their vandalism, policing costs, security and legal settlements?
If one looked at a random group of 350,000-400,000 (the two figures I have seen cited for total fraternity membership) 18-24 year old US males, how many incidents per week or per year of underage drinking, accidental death, hazing-like activity and sexual assault do you think you would find?
Information on this would be helpful to assessing whether fraternities really are a distinct problem, or if the problem is generalized to that age-group population as a whole. Fraternities are an easy target, because a random underage drinker or dorm room vandalizer or rapist in campus housing isn’t that interesting of a story.
My take on my childrens’ Greek experiences is that they are held to a higher standard of behavior than the general student population, and certainly moreso than when I was in college.
Xiggi, great video in post #64. Thanks.
Well, google and “crime rate among fraternities vs general student population” gives the following as the second hit -
http://www.academia.edu/3288958/Sorority_women_s_and_fraternity_men_s_rape_myth_acceptance_and_bystander_intervention_attitudes See page 75, under “Fraternity Culture”. Interesting stuff.
Collateral damage? Heck, we ought to tell the PSU football people that considering the statistics on child abuses, there should be no concern for a “few” cases.
Well, we can thank our ancient elders for coining the term: Reductio ad absurdum! Yep, that still works!
@"Cardinal Fang" - For sororities, the number of charitable hours in 2011-12 is 600,000 across a population of 300,000. So, 2 per person. https://www.npcwomen.org/resources/pdf/2012%20Annual%20Report.pdf page 4. I could not readily find a public reference for fraternities.
Thrilled to see the lawsuit being filed - hope Phi Psi at UVA walks away with a huge settlement.
I’m going to stay out of the fraternities are good vs. evil debate - which seems very repetitive. No one on here is going to change their point of view.
Decidesomehow,
I’ve seen those studies. There is no data on rapes by fraternity men. Just a lot of theories about attitudes.
xiggi,
I’m not arguing that the problems are not important. Its possible that wiping out fraternities might make a difference in the statistics among 18-24 year old males, or it might not, if we knew them. One poster kept repeating that there is one death per year among fraternity men. It turned out that one per year per 350,000 18-24 yr old men is very low, so does that mean fraternity membership is a safer place to be? I don’t know, but it certainly put that particular mantra in the waste heap.
I agree, and I offer my apologies for keeping the debate alive. I will try to stop now.
Bay, you know what they say about statistics! I do not believe it makes much difference if the real number is 1/350,000 per year or … 9/14,000 in the past decade for SAE only!
What I’d like to safely assume is that the parents of George Desdunes (or the other victims) might think that one was too many.
The biggest problem, and one I believe is due to the unabated desire to trivialize the nature of the crimes, is that there have been no real and genuine improvements from within, and no real abatements in the annual number of “measurable” statistics.
But c’est la vie.
They deserve a settlement. Rolling Stone was reckless and irresponsible in publishing the story without vetting it.
I’m not really seeing a big settlement in favor of the frat. Not sure what big ticket damages the frat has suffered, other than some vandalism and the loss of some party time.
The big potential plaintiff here would be UVA but my guess is that they don’t sue.