<p>So I have to choose between two awesome schools: columbia and penn. I want to major in political science and am looking to attend law school when I'm finished with undergrad. I took into consideration that Columbia's law school is one of best in the nation-- alongside Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Would my being in Columbia college facilitate entry into Columbia law school? What about the other law schools I mentioned? Thanks! :-]</p>
<p>Well, there's a couple ways to look at it. </p>
<p>As much as I want to say Penn, Columbia's Political Science department is stronger. </p>
<p>Going to Columbia for undergrad doesn't mean too much when you apply to law school. It shows you went to a good school and you're smart, but I don't think grad schools show too much special treatment towards students that were at the same university their first four years. You also have to ask yourself would you be willing to go to Columbia for undergrad and grad, or would you like a change of scenery. Penn also has an elite law school, although Columbia's got a slightly better one. </p>
<p>As for Yale, Harvard, and Stanford, you're still going to have to perform well in class and on your LSAT to have a shot, and they will be even more impressed if you do that at Columbia or Penn. Tell me if I'm making any sense, it's been a long day.</p>
<p>You're making total sense. I agree with you; the LSAT and GPA are among the two most important factors when it comes to law school admissions. I was just unsure of which university was seen as having the stronger program and better career prospects after graduation. What do you think?</p>
<p>It's a toss-up. What I will say is that my absolute favorite course at Columbia was taught by the university president himself, Lee Bollinger. It was on Freedom of Speech and Press, of which he is a leading scholar (recently defended two cases in front of the supreme court), and it was taught exactly like a law school class. Absolutely fascinating experience, and WindowShopping will agree with me. I damn near went to law school because of it, and why I didn't had nothing to do with opportunity.</p>
<p>It's also worth noting that west philly is a pretty nasty place to be. I've talked to police officers at the 18th district in philly for my own little research on this - there is a ton of drug activity starting about 5 blocks west of campus, and higher per-capita property crime on campus than at columbia. You leave campus at columbia and you get... more restaurants and bars. You gotta go more than a mile to get into sketchy territory (i.e. the 140s and broadway, or east of Lexington ave...). I'm not trying to scare you or anything - it's not exactly the Gaza Strip over there - but location is definitely one of the selling points of columbia and it's a differentiator.</p>
<p>There is an accelerated 3-3 program between CC/SEAS and CLS, the AILE program, that will nearly guarantee admission if you clear their (high) barriers. And if you don't, I still know plenty of people who went from CC to CLS without incident. It's definitely very frequent to see people go to top-5 law schools coming out of columbia undergrad. I can't speak to Penn.</p>
<p>If you can get in touch with WindowShopping, he can tell you more about the political science dept at columbia, since I believe he's the only PoliSci major on the board at the moment.</p>
<p>DU1990, first congratulations on two great choices. They are IMHO the two best Ivies after HYP. In terms of choosing between the two the parameters are obvious: academics, extracurriculars, environment on campus, the city you're in.</p>
<p>Academics - overall the schools are about even. In social sciences, Penn is slightly ahead (average the US News grad program rankings as a check); in humanities Columbia is slightly ahead. On balance they are even. As stated earlier, Columbia's PoliSci program is stronger. In addition, CU will offer their Core, which is famous, comprehensive in its survey of Western culture's foundations and quite rigorous [make sure you're willing to make that 1/3 of your academic life, but it'll make sense re political science]. Penn provides a much broader array of courses at the undergrad level, you can replicate the "core" although it won't be as structured as Columbia's program, and Penn offers unique flexibility in allowing you to take classes in all of its schools (Wharton, Law, Education, etc. as an undergrad). Explore both schools carefully in this regard.</p>
<p>ExCurrics - I'll offer up Penn's links to the National Constitution Center (Penn is the academic partner to the center), Penn's unique Kelly Writers House and Civics House; all of these programs may be helpful for a polisci major and future lawyer. I'm not that aware of Columbia's ECs, but you can find out on this board for sure.</p>
<p>Environment - Denz is far too tough on West Philadelphia. And too easy on Harlem/Morningside Heights. There's crime in both places; you won't have much to worry about at EITHER school. Both campuses are pretty safe; remember that Penn's campus is open and is 270 acres; Columbia is closed/gated and is 35 acres. Do your own research re crime etc. if that's a worry. More importantly, re campus life = Penn is very social, with a relatively strong Greek scene, and a work hard/party hard mentality. Columbia (based on many other posts on this board) doesn't have as much school spirit since many undergrads get drawn to exploring NY instead of bonding on campus. Talk to current students </p>
<p>I won't go into details re the respective cities, except to say the best of each (arts, music, culture, diversity, food) is world class and each has rocky parts. NYC is generally 25-35% more expensive than Philly, but has a much broader range of things to explore and learn from. Either way, both places are 90 minutes from each other.</p>
<p>Philly World class like NYC? Are you serious? Your arguements about Columbia vs. Penn I will not disagree with ;)</p>
<p>You didn't read my post clearly enough. What is said is "the best of each (arts, music, culture, diversity, food) is world class"...</p>
<p>that means the Phila Museum of Art, the Pennsyl Academy of Fine Arts, the Barnes, etc.; it means MOMA, the Met, the Frick, the Guggenheim; it means Per Se, Le Bernardin, Daniel; it means Le Bec Fin, the Fountain; the Curtis Institute and Julliard. </p>
<p>Each offers world class contributions to the cultural/social scene. I didn't say either one was better than the other.</p>
<p>If you want scope, NYC offers more than all the other cities on the east coast combined [and you could throw in all of Texas too], but that comes at a price (literally). </p>
<p>The essence of what I am saying is that both places offer a lot for one's cultural fix, diversity needs and hanging-out itch.</p>
<p>so my brother is a penn grad, and he considers the 4 years, by far, the best years of his life, not only in terms of fun but in terms making something out of himself. Penn and columbia are on equal footing in terms of academic quality overall and in terms of poli sci and law school placement they're more or less even. Here are some similarities:</p>
<p>1) both don't hold your hand but give you ample opportunity</p>
<p>2)smallish urban campuses, with a big city in the backyard, and all that that implies: convenience, distractions from campus, more things to do</p>
<p>3)both very Internationally oriented, although columbia maybe slightly more so.</p>
<p>4) among the oldest institutions in the US, both very well established, with rich histories.</p>
<p>5) comparable facilities and endowments.</p>
<p>Here are a few key differences:</p>
<p>1) Penn is a very practical and pre-professional school, very few people like the useless academic side of academics. Columbia in this respect is more balanced, with people enjoying theoretical and philosophical discussions more, but still having it's die hard practical, pre-professional section.</p>
<p>2) Penn has better sports teams, and even if they don't, penn students are much prouder of their athletics.</p>
<p>3) NYC trumps philly any day of the week for anything, but penn has better on campus parties.</p>
<p>4)penn is 2.5 times the size, it's has a bigger better frat scene, less intimacy of a smaller campus.</p>
<p>5)penn i'd say is marginally more interdisciplinary with marginally weirder classes. columbia is more research oriented, more research opportunities for undergrads (in both science and non science fields).</p>
<p>Interesting points, but I disagree with you on the "differences"</p>
<p>1 - Penn's "preprofessional reputation" comes from having strong engineering, business and nursing programs. The College - however - is the center of ugrad life and is itself the same size as Columbia undergard (Fu and the College); so, notwithstanding the visibility of Wharton etc. a student won't suffer re the balance of humanities + arts vs professional life at Penn.</p>
<p>BTW, the dirty little secret is that a huge majority of the lib arts kids want to work for Goldman Sachs or McKinsey at both schools LOL</p>
<p>2) no comment</p>
<p>3) true only in that you can't compare NYC to ANY city in the US; NYC is larger than Boston, Philly, DC, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, and Dallas combined (you could throw in Cincinatti for good measure - NY is still larger); its more diverse than almost all other cities (though Philly is up there in the top 10 along with NYC)</p>
<p>4) Hmmm---where are your numbers from???
Undergrad - Penn is ~10,000 kids, Columbia is ~7000
Total - Penn is 21,000 students, Columbia is 23,000</p>
<p>Endowments - both are roughly $7 billion</p>
<p>5 - Way off dude. Penn has pulled in more research dollars than Columbia for each of the last 10 years, and recently by a large margin (ie., more than a $50 mm - 10% - difference).</p>
<p>Both schools allow their students to get involved in advanced research. Penn has the Center for Undergrad Research and Fellowships (CURF) just for this reason. </p>
<p>Your point re CU being more research oriented is completely and unequivocally wrong.</p>
<p>Penn does has more unique majors derived from its 30 year old focus on interdisciplinary work. Management and Technology (engineering and business) is 30 yrs old. Other crazy majors are Biological Basis of Behavior, Digital Media Design, Vagelos Progam (life sciences), etc. Penn also has a wider array of classes (Iranian Literature, Midwivery, Systems Analysis) simply b/c it's a larger school and can support that range of programs.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, on the intimacy point - it's surprising you claim that since a lot of Columbia posters mention the lack of social cohesion on campus primarily b/c so many CU students spend their time exploring Manhattan instead of bonding with their classmates on campus.</p>
<p>"4) Hmmm---where are you numbers from???
Undergrad - Penn is ~10,000 kids, Columbia is ~7000
Total - Penn is 21,000 students, Columbia is 23,000"</p>
<p>sorry miscalc, 1.5 times the size, i guess that makes less of a difference</p>
<p>5) pulling in more research dollars has nothing to do with giving undergrads research opps. Columbia has a greater proportion of students doing research work on campus. Penn having a center for undergrad research does not mean it gives students more opportunities. I don't know of a single kid at columbia who wanted research and couldn't find it. Perhaps this is the same at penn, but from what I've been told a smaller % of undergrads at penn get involved in the first place.</p>
<p>Perhaps you lose an all encompassing social scene with huge parties at columbia, but intimacy is purely a function of size and proximity to peers. ALL columbia freshman live within 150 meters of one another.</p>
<p>agreed with confidentialcoll, especially on the research. furthermore:
[quote]
Oh yeah, on the intimacy point - it's surprising you claim that since a lot of Columbia posters mention the lack of social cohesion on campus primarily b/c so many CU students spend their time exploring Manhattan instead of bonding with their classmates on campus.
[/quote]
I don't know any actual CU student who's come in here and actually complained about social cohesion on campus. Except for slipper1234, who transferred to dartmouth. CU students spend SOME time exploring manhattan **WITH **their classmates from school. Not instead of. It's pretty boring to go to (say) the west village to try and find a funky tea shop all by yourself. With a friend or new acquaintance it can be really charming.</p>
<p>Sorry confidentialcoll, I'm not buying it. Both are great for undergrad research. Research dollars shows the overall scale of activities conducted. Both schools have a large number of grad schools and a wide range of majors. So research opps are plentiful</p>
<p>Check CURF</a> - research for Penn's info.</p>
<p>Either place will serve young students well.</p>
<p>Re the social scence, more than slipper has noted this. Many students have stated this - on this board and on others. I think it's a natural outcome of being in NYC vs being in - say Ithaca or Hanover. There is simply more to be involved in away from campus. It's the delight and downside of going to college in NYC.</p>
<p>Interesting information from all of you. I'm primarily concerned with this question--Is it better to graduate from Columbia or Penn with a political science degree in terms of job prospects? I don't care about the social scene--I'm bound to find friends either way.</p>
<p>If you graduate with a degree in Political Science from either school, your job prospects will be pretty much the same I'd say. Probably not the answer you want to hear, but these two particular schools by pretty much every measure are even.</p>
<p>Wait, since when does Columbia have 7K undergrads? I thought GS kids live off-campus (or separate university housing) and Barnard kids are on a different campus. Last time I checked, Columbia's residential undergrad population (CC+SEAS) comprised of about 5300.</p>
<p>per Columbia's website</p>
<p>STUDENT ENROLLMENT (FALL 2006)
Undergraduate 7,467
Morningside Graduate 5,096
Morningside Professional 6,926
Medical Center 3,220
Special Programs and Nondegree Students 1,932
University Total 24,644</p>
<p>Ah, better information:</p>
<p>UNDERGRADUATE ADMISSIONS
Columbia College, Entering Fall Class
1995 2000 2006
Applications 8,713 13,463 17,152
Admitted students 2,051 1,749 1,662
Admit Rate 24% 13% 10%
Enrolled students 880 1,012 1,022
Yield Rate 43% 58% 62%
Engineering, Entering Fall Class
1995 2000 2006
Applications 1,351 2,439 2,702
Admitted students 674 661 637
Admit Rate 50% 27% 24%
Enrolled students 278 315 316
Yield Rate 41% 48% 50%</p>
<p>From the same source. You are right - Fu and CC are approx 5300.</p>
<p>Right. The deal is, the College and SEAS make up the whole of Columbia's residential undergrad community. I had presumed that Whartonites and nursing/dental students lived along with CAS and SEAS kids at Penn, but I'm admittedly not a Penn expert, so I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Yes, Penn has a larger undergraduate body. No real doubt about that. </p>
<p>But if you want to go to law school, Penn offers a huge advantage over Columbia in that **any Penn undergraduate can take classes at Penn Law<a href="which%20is%20still%20a%20very%20elite%20top%2010%20law%20school">/b</a>. Here is a page detailing Penn's policies for taking courses at Penn Law (Penn</a> Law: Law Classes are not just for Law Students)</p>
<p>Here is Columbia College's policy on taking courses at Columbia Law:
Law School: Courses may be taken only by students in the Accelerated Interdisciplinary Legal Education (AILE) program, a joint-degree program. Students must have signed permission from the Law School Office of the Assistant Dean of Academic Services, 500 William and June Warren Hall.</p>
<p>That being said, you won't go wrong with either school. Both of them are phenomenal universities in great American cities and undoubtedly among the world's finest. Congratulations on being admitted to both of them! :)</p>