Columbia settles with Nungesser

Consolation, the statement “I do not believe that the woman was present at the hearing” was made by HarvestMoon1 in response to a comment of mine that preceded it. We cross-posted, because I was typing and editing at length.

My university would not proceed if the woman was not present for the hearing. We know that Columbia did not, in a different Nungesser case (on appeal, after he had already been found responsible once when the woman was present and testified–she had graduated and started a new job in the interim, and so did not show up the second time).

I think I have already said that it would be a faulty process if it went ahead without the woman’s consent.

My university’s practices in cases of alleged sexual assault can be found online. I imagine that CSU-Pueblo’s can also. If I have time, I will look.

Those things may very well be irrelevant to you, but I do not believe they would be irrelevant to any University. And what “reasonable” University employees “should have concluded” depends very much on what they were presented with – in this case I believe that to be an unknown.

Based on her most recent statements last Spring to CBS Denver when Brian Maass interviewed Grant Neal, I don’t believe this to be true either. While she declined CBS’s invitation to be appear on camera, she stated she felt “wronged” by what happened that evening and believes she was" taken advantage of." She would not elaborate further except to say that she felt the punishment rendered by the University “went too far.”

So here is CSU-Pueblo’s policy: http://csu-pueblo-policies.colostate.edu/policy.aspx?id=55

CSU-Pueblo may proceed against the wishes of a person who may have been assaulted. I could support this idea in a different type of case, that involved battery with obvious physical injuries, where the victim still did not want to proceed (that does happen). However, in this case, I agree that proceeding against the accused–when the woman did not want the case to go forward–would not be right.

I cannot tell from what I have read so far whether the woman agreed to have the proceedings go forward, or did not agree. It is possible that she was under some pressure due to her job as a trainer. It is almost certain that she thought the sanctions, if any, would be light.

When the proceedings went forward, I think it is wrong if the only evidence was hearsay evidence from people to whom the woman in question had talked. Again, there I agree with the majority on this thread.

Here is where I diverge from others: If the woman talked to the investigator and said to him exactly what she is reported to have said in the article, then there is a potential problem for the man. The statements of the woman to the investigator may not be considered as hearsay, in the CSU-Pueblo proceedings. I can’t comment on the legal aspect of this.

If you look at II.A. and III. of the CSU-Pueblo policy, and just take the statements that are there on their plain substance, and you also believe the statement of events by the woman that were included in the article, on their plain face, then a violation occurred. I accept that this may seem totally unfair to other posters. But please take a look at what is written there and compare it with the woman’s statement. If you take just the first part of the interaction (as described by the woman and included in the article), in my opinion it matches the situation in the CSU policy.

A claim that it does not would have to hinge on the interaction that immediately followed. The CSU policy does not have a lot of give there, however.

A panel that consisted of people who applied the policy as written (yes or no to each element, and assuming that the statement as made by the woman in the article was admissible one way or another) would be stuck, even if they thought that it was not fair, in the larger picture. One could go for “jury/panel nullification,” though I would not have, based on the information that is out there.

It is not clear who decides on the sanction in a case–at least, I didn’t read the CSU policy exhaustively enough to determine, other than “the University.” Perhaps it is stated in other policy documents. I think expulsion is harsh in this particular case. This is where a simple statistical report would not reflect the complexity of the situation, because the initial events do match II.A. and III.

I have noticed that the man was suspended, and not expelled.

In case people do not want to search around for the comments I am referring to, here is the statement by the woman, from http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/04/19/csu-pueblo-grant-neal-suspension-consensual-sex/:

"According to CSU-Pueblo’s internal investigation, obtained by CBS4, the woman told an investigator, ‘Grant was lying on top of me and I told him that I did not want to have sexual intercourse with him that is unprotected because I am not on any birth control. Although I told Grant no, Grant ended up penetrating me … and I told him to stop. He stopped and pulled out from me immediately. Grant then said to me that if he used a condom, would I be okay with that. I told Grant yes to the condom. Grant placed on the condom and we began to have protected sex at this point which I was okay with it.’ "

The woman’s statement to the investigator, if repeated at the hearing, may not have been treated as hearsay–I don’t know.

According to the same article, the man said "‘She was very adamant in pulling me close and wanting me to have intercourse with her. At the beginning, when I was lying on top I didn’t have a condom.’ Neal said the woman said she was not on birth control.’ I immediately got off her and asked if I should put a condom on and she said yes and then we engaged in sexual intercourse. She never said no and never told me to stop.’ ”

This might be a case of he said/she said, with an ironic twist that she apparently still does not realize that what she said creates a problem for the man. The man’s statement does not have the detail of the woman’s statement. That could be chivalrous and self-protective at the same time.

Again ironically, the fact that the woman does not think there was any problem would incline me to believe that events transpired in detail as she described. This is where “preponderance of evidence” differs from “clear and convincing,” for me.