Columbia settles with Nungesser

Good luck with that, lol.

As far as your points, let’s start with the last. Yes. Some men may be hostile to claims of sexual harrasment brought by a woman against a man. I don’t recall ever saying or intimating something different. And as I clearly stated in the post you quoted, this issue has less to do with gender than a person’s pre dispositions. To make the obvious point, if my son were unfortunate enough to be accused of sexual harrassment or assault, I would much rather have @momofthreeboys as the decision maker than @collegedad13.

But in the larger sense, what I am speaking of is the difference between you and I. Based on the exchanges we have had, I would be confident that you would treat a hearing with seriousness. That said, you appear by inclination to be someone who would lean toward believing the accuser over the accused when resolving close factual questions. Similarly, while I intellectually understand that some women can wait many months before reporting a sexual assault, I would find it hard to overcome the fact that she waited some 18 months before bringing her claim, and that her contemporaneous actions evinced an intent to maintain a sexual relationship with the guy. While some of this is the normal variation of biases we find in society, it is at issue here because of the burden of proof. Technically, even under a preponderance standard, if the only evidence presented is he said/she said, the accused should get off every time. But that is not what happens, because try as we lawyers might, humans are imperfect decision makers, and our preconceptions and biases always leak through.

So over centuries we have developed levels of proof society will stomach before depriving a person of liberty (reasonable doubt) or simply property (preponderance). We use the lower standard because it is more efficient, less costly and in the main the issues decided under the preponderance standard are of less societal import. But, we have also developed a hybrid standard of clear and convincing which for many many years applied to claims like those dealt with in tribunals - those which do not put liberty at risk but where an adverse ruling could carry severe societal sanction. One of the reasons that several schools fought to retain the clear and convincing standard in this context was because it is a strong reminder to those who have a general inclination to believe an accuser that proof is still required. This follows centuries of our legal tradition that holds that a person who asserts a fact must prove its truth. In other words and in this context, it is an instruction to those whose general inclination is to believe the accuser that something more than their general inclination to resolve factual issues in the accuser’s favor should be required to sustain a verdict, because the societal consequences suffered by the accused as a result of that verdict could be severe.

Turning to your other points, yes, an accused person has the right to object to a panelist, but as we both know from the Yale case and from the rest of the section you truncated, Yale reserves the right to decide whether to remove the panelist based on the objection. So what the objection is worth is dependant entirely on the provost’s subjective mindset, or more likely the person the provost tasks with dealing with such things. And the circle continues.

As to how panelists are chosen, how do you think people get nominated and selected? Do you think maybe that people who are not involved in this area get picked all that often? Do you think that a professor, managerial or professional employee who thinks poorly of the process is going to end up serving? You think that someone who the Title IX adminstrator feels is hostile is going to make their way through the system, even if they were masochistic enough to try? Yeah, me neither.

Also, what “training” is being provided, and who decides that? I would bet a dollar to a dime and a donut (which come to think of it probably costs more than a dollar) that a lot of the training has to do with “explaining” that no matter what actions a “survivor” takes after an event the panelist should not take that as inconsistent with the current claims. Do you think that the accused is offered the opportunity to provide similar “training” to the panel?

None of this stuff would fly in the legal system, and frankly it shouldn’t fly here either.

@collegedad2013 There is another very long thread in which all of the details of the accusations were discussed at length. Yes, I did read about that incident. I read all of the information that was publicly available.

Now you and quantmech, who clearly believes that any accused male is automatically guilty and who admits that she is unfamiliar with this case want to declare Nungesser guilty based on cherry-picking evidence.

My suggestion is that you start a new thread revisiting that topic.

@QuantMech , go revisit the other thread. I am not going to do your research for you. Here is an overview of my recollection: ES went to the police long after the alleged rape. (Not uncommon, for reasons we all know, and not a strike against her case in and of itself.) The police offered to investigate the incident as domestic violence. Emma declined to cooperate, saying that it was, IIRC, “tiresome” or “trying.” No doubt: such investigations can be brutal. There was speculation in some quarters that what this official accusation did was make Nungesser’s name part of the public record, which enabled her to use it. This may or may not be true, but the timing was interesting. I’m sure you can find it.

BTW, when it comes to panels, if you read about the many cases out there that have been decided in either direction, there is ample evidence that the selection and training of panel members ranges all over the map. It may be that as time goes on colleges have–or will–improve in this regard.

And now for my favorite hobby horse. This situation comes from building a process from scratch and on the fly. It’s hard to invent a legal system. It would have been far better to implement the changes contemplated by the DCL methodically and in the light of day. But doing so would have meant that the people advocating for the DCL would have had to compromise. So we have the system as it exists presently.

From my perspective, whole crux is to get to a point where the sexes are equal and the spirit of the policies holds. That means no special treatment for either sex. That means if something is confidential it is confidential for both parties If someone doesn’t get the desired “result” from a tribunal that they utilize the options that are available to them with the law and within the policies of the university. It doesn’t mean that one party gets to harass and slander the other party regardless if which side of the coin you land on. I happen to personally not believe that women need "special protections and you go to the police and persist until you get someone to pay attention to you. We rarely “hear” about women taking their complaints about unfair treatment by a university through the appropriate legal channels and unfortunately the most prominent media-wise have been men who have stuck it through the court challenges. Doesn’t mean I think all women lie…l I have to wonder why the women aren’t taking advantage of the civil legal system? I don’t entirely “buy in” to the theory that it’s too traumatizing for women, but not for men to have their most intimate details “exposed” in the court systems. Nungesser “stuck it” as did his parents and I have to give then credit for it. I do think he was manipulated (by the late but oh my goodness I don’t want to deal with the police) which “outed” him from what should have been confidential and I do think what happened to him was university sanctioned harassment. What happened before the harassment was entirely part of the university proceedings and separate from what happened after. Personally frankly, if I were her parents I would not want her in any court of law civil or otherwise.

I admit that I am inclined to believe a woman who accuses a man of rape, more often than not. I have also posted multiple times that I adhere to the standards of proof.

When two people know each other and they are alone when an assault occurs, there may be no way of actually proving the accusation at the “beyond a reasonable doubt” or “clear and convincing” level, and often not even at the “preponderance of evidence” level. The difficulty of proof is re-doubled when the two have previously had consensual intercourse. That does not mean that a rape did not happen. It just means that nothing can be done about it.

The apparent fact that Columbia let the Nungesser hearing go forward with Nungesser represented by a lawyer and Sulkowicz represented by a staff member from the women’s resource center is reprehensible, if true.

My view of rape has been influenced by the fact that as a high-school student, my dearest, lifelong friend was raped by an armed stranger who waited outside her house and grabbed her as she came out to her car. Her parents were out of the house, at a holiday party. This was a very rare event in our community. The policemen who investigated treated her with respect. It was a case of statutory rape that occurred many years ago, both of which no doubt helped with the interactions with the police. Nevertheless, I know that this disrupted her life for many years, and it still has lasting repercussions. The man was never identified. I do not know whether he was ever caught in another case.

I am seriously upset by the fact that a new “sexual conquest” competition has apparently broken out at St. Paul’s School, Owen Labrie’s alma mater.

I am also influenced by the recent case of Larry Nassar, the team physician to USA Women’s Gymnastics for many years. A few years ago, Nassar was investigated by Michigan State University on a charge of assaulting a woman he was “treating” when he was a member of the clinical faculty at the university, and he was cleared. Complaints about his conduct cover a period of about 20 years (vaginal examinations without wearing gloves and other actions). Now Nassar has accepted a plea bargain on federal charges of child pornography, which is easier to prove. There are multiple assault charges pending at the state level (at least 20, probably more).

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/07/11/us/11reuters-michigan-sexcrimes.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/sports/usa-gymnastics-child-sex-abuse.html
There are plenty more articles out there. The Indianapolis Star broke this story. It appears that a Michigan State University gymnastics coach advised an athlete in the program against reporting Nassar, roughly in 1997.

You won’t provide links to articles in newspapers of record on the Sulkowicz case, Consolation? I read at least one lengthy article in the New York Times about it, when the story first appeared. I think this is an instance of a burden of proof that cannot be met.

In fact, Nungesser was “represented” by a graduate student.

He would be foolish not to get someone with some legal experience. Her parents could have done the same for her. His mother is reported as a writer with the National Council of German Women’s Organizations and a feminist blogger so she’s probably highly aware of what kind of stuff was happening within US university campuses and especially the high profile unis and certainly would not have her head in the sand.

Could you please provide a source on Nungesser’s representation at the University hearing, Consolation? Sulkowicz’s parents stated in the open letter to Lee Bollinger (linked earlier on this thread) that Nungesser was represented by a lawyer.

Sulkowicz was advised by Columbia to be represented by a staff member from the women’s resource center, and she followed their advice.

Some university proceedings do not permit true legal representation. I am not sure what is the case here.

@OhioDad51 I really don’t agree with the sum and substance of your post #140. But we have already beat those topics to death in previous threads.

As far as how you or I would view a close case if we were sitting on a panel, I have complete confidence in my ability to fulfill those responsibilities in an unbiased manner. I have both a son and a daughter and have had no personal experience with sexual assault. And I have read enough of the court files to comprehend the damage that can be done to both parties in these situations. When you sit on a jury or an administrative panel and cast your vote, you have to live with yourself afterwards. In a lot of ways it is a heavy burden to bear. I think the vast majority of people do not take it lightly. I am not going to comment on what you might do in a close factual case, you can speak for yourself.

As far as burden of proof, I honestly think at the end of the day the outcomes would not be all that different whether you use preponderance of the evidence or clear and convincing evidence. And there is really no way of evaluating the decision making processes of each panel member – who knows what standard they really apply.

If we wanted truly unbiased panels, the panels would be selected randomly, like we do for jury duty. If we wanted the most qualified panelists, they would be judges, retired judges, or attorneys, as is typically the case in arbitration proceedings. The system Yale has, as posted by @HarvestMoon1, seems designed to produce neither qualified nor unbiased panels.

I went back through some of the Columbia reports. It appears that about 25 complaints per year are filed against Columbia students for sexual misconduct. However each year Columbia only finds around 1 or 2 responsible.

Amazingly Nungesser was found responsible in a separate act of sexual assault. He also had 2 other charges of rape against him. I guess the gender board was kept pretty busy with his actions.

At the hearing panel the victim is not allowed to cross exam or exam any witnesses and they for the most part refuse to let any lawyer speak on behalf of the victim to the panel. Also the panels are currently in violation of federal and state law by refusing to allow recordings or transcription of any hearing. I don’t blame Emma for thinking the process is not very fair!!!

I think most of us would rather not hash out the original sexual assault case. We spent several weeks doing it the first time, and I don’t think you’ll find anything new to add to that original discussion. :-<

@roethlisburger there are actually schools that do use retired judges to adjudicate these matters and some also retain an outside law firm to undertake the investigation and render a finding. I know Swarthmore hired a former Pennsylvania Supreme Court Justice to adjudicate their cases and Florida State used a retired Florida Supreme Court Justice to adjudicate the hearing of Jameis Winston. But many schools maintain a “pool” of trained panelists and they are chosen based on availability to serve. While outside adjudication is gaining ground I see benefits to both processes.

And let’s be honest here, our judicial system has major issues and doesn’t even come close to always getting it right. In fact, they very often get it wrong. Here’s a list of 25 men who were wrongly convicted of rape, sentenced to prison and who were later exonerated by DNA evidence:

http://www.forensicsciencetechnician.net/25-wrongly-convicted-felons-exonerated-by-new-forensic-evidence/
And how about these 160 men who had been sitting in jail for years? All were eventually released with many of their stories involving coerced confessions, mistaken identities, lying of witnesses, destruction or concealment of evidence and other prosecutorial shenanigans.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-cases#158

@QuantMech , start with wikipedia. Instead of challenging me, look into it yourself. It’s not hard. And no, AFAIK, Columbia does not allow actual “representation,” since that is forbidden by the DCL.

I am really surprised at you.

@Consolation ation most people can back up things they say instead of referring people to Wikipedia.

Did that come from Wikipedia?

It is mentioned in the Wikipedia article that Nungesser was represented by a graduate student. The cited source is an article by Cathy Young. Sulkowicz’s parents say Nungesser had an attorney present. Columbia’s rules allow for a supporter who has been trained as an attorney, but who cannot technically “represent” the accused.

This seems to me like a case of she [Cathy Young] said/they [Sulkowicz’s parents] said. I would need a more reliable source than Cathy Young in order to have an opinion on this.

I took a look at exactly what Sulkowicz’s parents wrote in their letter to Lee Bollinger, which was, “During the hearing, Nungesser, advised by his outside attorney, lied in order to cast doubt upon Emma’s character and present an alternative and perverse motivation for her complaint.”

I interpreted this to mean that Nungesser was advised by his outside attorney during the hearing. However, I see that the phrase “During the hearing” could be attached to the sentence element “Nungesser lied” rather than to the sentence element “advised by his outside attorney.”

It is probably wise for a young man in Nungesser’s position to hire an outside attorney. It looks to me as though Sulkowicz would have been better off hiring one also, contrary to the advice that the university gave her.

I would really like to see the complainant in a case like this represented pro bono. There are many law schools that have practicums for law students, offering pro bono legal advice. I hear that there are also many established law firms in New York City. :slight_smile:

I took a look at exactly what Sulkowicz’s parents wrote in their letter to Lee Bollinger, which was, “During the hearing, Nungesser, advised by his outside attorney, lied in order to cast doubt upon Emma’s character and present an alternative and perverse motivation for her complaint.”

I interpreted this to mean that Nungesser was advised by his outside attorney during the hearing. However, I see that the phrase “During the hearing” could be attached to the sentence element “Nungesser lied” rather than to the sentence element “advised by his outside attorney.”

It is probably wise for a young man in Nungesser’s position to hire an outside attorney. It looks to me as though Sulkowicz would have been better off hiring one also, contrary to the advice that the university gave her.

I would really like to see the complainant in a case like this represented pro bono. There are many law schools that have practicums for law students, offering pro bono legal advice. I hear that there are also many established law firms in New York City. :slight_smile:

Whether you are an accuser or accused, being represented by counsel at the hearing is almost meaningless, because as mentioned in #151, under the DCL, the lawyer isn’t allowed to anything besides hold the client’s hand.

Getting a lawyer to advise you right from the beginning of the process is a different story. That guidance can be priceless. But unfortunately, who supports you at the hearing means almost nothing. You can bring your grandma if she makes you feel calmer.