Columbia vs UChicago vs Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
1

<p>Hey all!</p>

<p>I was somehow admitted to these three schools. I've visited all of the campuses, and I still am unsure of where I want to go (however, I'll be going to admitted students days very soon). I'm not sure what I want to major in, but I have some general ideas. I'm considering comp. lit/english, film, biology, and philosophy. I've lived right next to NYC all my life, so the plain "WOW!" factor of New York isn't really coming into play for me with Columbia. I want an intellectual student body that is also very celebratory of diversity. Oh, and Princeton and Chicago gave me virtually the same amount of money, while if I go to Columbia, my family will have to pay like 12 thousand dollars more yearly, and I will have to do workstudy for at least two years, whereas at the other two schools, I won't be required to work at all (however, I have heard that columbia will match it's peer institutions' $ offer? any truth to it?). </p>

<p>I'm open to any and all advice you may have. Thanks!</p>

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<p>Vonnegut
Two years ago my son faced part of your dilemma – Chicago, Columbia – and he is also a New Yorker, rabidly so. He chose Chicago, the reasoning being, in part, that he always had NY to come home to, so why not experience another city. In fact, we’ve all come to love Chicago (the city) and consider it a worthy alternative to NYC. The other two factors, for him, were
(1) the kinds of kids – Uchicago student body seemed to be characterized by a kind of Midwestern civility and decency which for him seemed like a pleasant change from the edginess of Columbia kids and what felt like it would be an extension of his high school years, which is not what he wanted
(2) the campus – Chicago he found beautiful, liking particularly the sense of a complete campus with its own integrity, though bleeding into the surrounding neighborhood at the edges, one that was far enough from downtown to serve as a refuge and respite from city craziness, but close enough to be readily accessible. Columbia does have the imposing central quad and the steps, but too much of the school lies outside that precinct, and he didn’t care for the lack of separation between the school and the city.</p>

<p>We did visit Princeton, found it gorgeous, but he elected not to apply as he felt the dominant culture (eating clubs, heavy partying, not a particularly intellectual atmosphere for such smart kids) was not right for him.</p>

<p>We’ll never know how Columbia would have turned out for him – probably just fine – but he’s really happy at UChicago and from what we can see from the outside as parents, it seems to be a really good fit.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>I will copy and paste some of the stuff I posted in other thread. (I am a parent of a third year at U Chicago).</p>

<hr>

<p>My son never had a plan (and still does not have it) to enter graduate school(in the academic field, not professional) after college. He always wanted to join the business world. This was all the more reason for him to immerse himself in the life of the mind environment during the crucial formative years of his life. that was my reasoning in encouraging him to pick U Chicago - because he might not get that kind of intense exposure later.</p>

<p>And, at the risk of sounding too cocky, I would say this: I was absolutely right. He drank up the essence of what U Chicago had to offer. He still wants to be part of the business world, but his ambition has been infused with a finer understanding of the world he lives in, a better appreciation of a success in far less materialistic and conventional manner, and a measure of empathy and understanding of those who are not like him in terms of opportunity, privilege, and ability. </p>

<p>I think U Chicago has that effect. I don’t think there is any other institution among tippy top elite colleges/universities that is quite like U Chicago in terms of culture and emphasis on intellectual pursuit and I am very happy that my son is benefiting from that singular experience. He completely agrees with me.</p>

<p>He visited his friends in Princeton, and reported to me the following “I noticed how my friends, who were more or less like me at highschool got caught up in the prestige competition - judging each other on the perceived status and future earning power. I am glad I am at Chicago not at Princeton. Given how competitive in nature I am, I would have excelled by outcompeting anyone in that game. That’s not how I want to live”.</p>

<p>If he becomes successful, his subordinates in the organization he is leading will benefit from the fact that he attended U Chicago. I have seen enough carnage wrecked by abusive executives with nothing but their raw ambition to guide their actions. </p>

<hr>

<p>I second JHS’s observation about U Chicago social etiquette regarding display of wealth and such. My son told me that it’s COMPLETELY gauche and frowned upon to flaunt wealth, privilege, and status. The funny thing is, based on what he told me, there are kids from some really wealthy families. I guess they are missing out the opportunity to flaunt their stuff.</p>

<p>This is why he was struck by the contrast when he visited Princeton - how “naturally” and “easily” the students were talking about money, status, privilege, and how big a part of the conversation that was. They were talking about eating clubs and the competition to get into prestigious ones, and they were pegging people based on such prestige and other privileges. Who knows? perhaps that was a bad sample? May be, but I doubt it. I think there is a real difference. My son said, he couldn’t possibly imagine that kind of conversation at U Chicago and he does know some really wealthy kids.</p>

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<p>Regarding cut throat competition, I actually asked this question to my son some time back. he said, NOT AT ALL. He said, he spent several hours before one exam to teach his friends and classmates who were having difficulty with some of the course materials. He similarly benefited when one of his class mates was a world class class note taker and walking Sparks Notes on all the reading assignments. He said, grade grubbing and cut throat attitudes are simply considered very gauche and unfashionable.</p>

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<p>OK. with all this said, you are in an extremely envious position. All three are fantastic schools. No matter where you go, you will do well. And, I understand, it will be really hard to resist the temptation to pick Princeton. You know what? Even in spite of what I described above, Princeton would be an amazingly wonderful choice for you. Certain aspects you don’t like, you can avoid. It’s truly a world class institution, and with well acknowledged and well deserved prestige to go with it. Good luck.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I sure wouldn’t pay an extra $12K/year for Columbia vs. either Chicago or Princeton. Without the “wow” factor of New York, I wouldn’t think Columbia was in the running at the same cost. Columbia, for me, has a lot of negatives – in many ways, an unpleasant place, where people tend to shout at, and about, each other rather than have actual discussion. It is way too politicized, and way too subject to influence from the (extraordinarily wealthy) outside community.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton and Chicago are both great choices, with almost completely different feels. Princeton is privileged, cozy, Establishment, social, suburban, gorgeously landscaped. No college, anywhere, has more alumni love and loyalty. Chicago is intense, intellectual, urban, ivory-towerish, a little defensive, midwestern, and trying (and succeeding) to be a little more like, well, Princeton every year, but still probably a least a decade away from having a student body that’s uniformly Princeton quality. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Both will be “celebratory of diversity.” I think Princeton is probably a little more diverse itself, but the city of Chicago is infinitely more diverse than anything closer to Princeton than New York or Philadelphia.</p>

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<p>At princeton you will not be able to double major I think, because you will need to write a thesis. Given your very wide variety of interests from film to biology, I’d imagine Uchicago would have more academic freedom, though I do not know if it has a film major. If you are interested in some other art, such as painting, but do not want a full major (like me), Princeton has a really nice visual arts certificate program at the Lewis Arts Centre. Creative arts at uchicago I’d imagine is less emphasised, but they recently opened a new Logan arts centre as well so I imagine it is drastically improving.</p>

<p>I actually applied to both schools (sadly rejected from pton) with uchicago as a very close first choice. What I liked about uchicago more is the intellectualness and quirkiness of the institution as a whole, from it’s essay questions to student body. This was pretty much the only significant factor. </p>

<p>I slightly preferred uchicago buildings looking at the internet because they looked slightly more harry pottery, but liked the environment of princeton hands down, with more natural greenery complementing the almost as gothic architecture. I knew nothing of hyde park, but also actually liked the idea of suburban cosyness of princeton surroundings, and the fact that they have a painting by monet in their meuseum. </p>

<p>One thing to consider about diversity I think is that the fashion/appeareance of princeton people are not very diverse, with preppy types looks being dominant. I have no idea of uchicago students dressing habits, but I assume people care less about clothes there.</p>

<p>As you are probably thinking, these factors are incredibly shallow because I had no real preference between important things like academic structures etc. I think money would have been the biggest deciding factor had I been accepted into both, but circumstances have made my own choice quite easy lol. But for you the aid is the same so its a bit harder. Anyway, hope you find use of my preliminary research before applying to both institutions.</p>

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<p>Just an observation. If you’re already downplaying Columbia in your initial question AND it’s an extra 12K, then it should already be off your list.</p>

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<p>imo, all three are top schools, and since you’re so accustomed to NYC, Columbia really doesn’t have much to offer more than Princeton or Chicago for an extra 12k a year. I agree whole-heartedly with McskittlZ10. </p>

<p>If you’re looking for an intellectual student body that celebrates diversity, I honestly think you should be looking at Chicago.</p>

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<p>If you show Columbia the financial package from Princeton they will match it. Write a letter that Columbia is your top school and you would really want to attend but the difference in FA offers is an impediment. Add the offer from UChicago and state how surprised you were since the other 2 schools both offered a similar level of aid. BTW, Columbia does not match merit aid, but you do not have anything to loose. Even H matches aid from the other ivies.</p>

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<p>Columbia may match the price, but it is clear that its atmosphere is not what you’re looking for. </p>

<p>I’ve been reading a lot of these topics lately, as well as one of my own [UPenn</a> v. UChicago](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1313593-upenn-v-uchicago.html]UPenn”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1313593-upenn-v-uchicago.html) which was actually quote above, and I can say with confidence that Princeton and Chicago are peer institutions in every sense of the word. Academically–and in terms of things like a strong housing system and sense of community–they are very similar.</p>

<p>However the pervasive difference is the Core focus at Chicago. For one who is as especially undecided as yourself, you will greatly benefit from the broad, varied Core classes. In fact, Chicago is so strong in some of the above areas (Philosophy and Lit.) that even if you choose another major you would not have to sacrifice quality in pursing these other interests. Princeton is strong in this regard as well, but perhaps not as much.</p>

<p>Also it’s been discussed many times that Princeton is, in general, less intellectual than Chicago’s student body. However, Princeton is seen as more socially active and approachable. So I guess it depends on your definition of ‘normal’ peers.</p>

<p>Also, consider the non-city environment of Princeton may be a welcome change. Or, you may desire to explore another city as spike9 has experienced.</p>

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<p>You couldn’t pay me to go to Chicago. I think Princeton is the clear winner here if Columbia wouldn’t match.</p>

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<p>Hey, trollnyc, remember posting this almost one year ago?</p>

<p>“I have no axe to grind with UC, just with this ridiculous notion that it is the only school where students go to learn, blah, blah, blah, that they learn for “sake of learning”, etc. I don’t know the source of this holier than thou attitude but it is a little obnoxious.” - trollnyc</p>

<p>Well, it seems you found an axe somewhere. Congratz!</p>

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<p>@vonnegut I initially chose UChicago because of the fact that the Fiske Guide basically suggested that UChicago was one of the top 2 or 3 undergraduate programs in the country along with Harvard and Yale–and because the economics department was the best. (I never considered Columbia or Princeton.)</p>

<p>Then I switched majors–first to English, then to Philosophy.</p>

<p>All I can say is William James and Bertrand Russell would tell you to choose UChicago over Princeton and Columbia. Russell felt UChicago had the finest philosophy department in the world and James had his famous comparison of UChicago vs. Harvard and Yale.</p>

<p>Important thinkers like that respected UChicago’s intellectual character and wouldn’t have cared less what university some dumb, uninformed high school students thought was trendy.</p>

<p>I briefly considered Columbia for graduate school but in the end chose the number one school in my field. I live in Los Angeles now and wasn’t really sure I wanted to live in NYC. (People in Los Angeles and California feel that California long ago passed up New York and the East Coast but that’s another story.) NYC is a great weekend trip for me but that’s about it. Plus, I didn’t really like Columbia’s campus. You feel as though you are living on the street. I suppose both neighborhoods have their safety issues, but Hyde Park feels a bit more residential.</p>

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<p>

There are very few fields, if any, in which Chicago is better than Princeton. Only Harvard, Berkeley, and Stanford can claim to have more breadth and depth than Princeton. Additionally, with its required senior thesis and capped grades, it is more rigorous than many of its peers.</p>

<p>According to the NSF baccalaureate origins survey, Chicago barely outperforms Princeton for PhD production. Although Chicago has capitalized on its “life of the mind” mantra in all of its admissions materials in a desperate attempt to set itself apart, universities like Harvard and Princeton hardly suffer from a lack of intellectual firepower. While Chicago students prefer to consider themselves Shakespeares to other universities’ Dan Browns, few outside the university have the same view.</p>

<p>Princeton has a more beautiful campus, is a lot wealthier with more resources, is more prestigious, is ranked higher overall and in most departments, has a more tight-knit community with more loyal alums, and is more fun. Almost all Princeton students live on campus, unlike Chicago where barely more than half do so, which lends itself to a more collegiate atmosphere. This is a no-brainer.</p>

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<p>I’m weighing my options between UChicago, Emory and Georgia Tech. </p>

<p>I’m gearing towards pre-med track but I also want to do some engineering as well. After reading this thread, I just wanna go to UChicago even more, more dilemma =.="…</p>

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<p>I think this attitude is one of the biggest myths about Princeton. While it might have been true before the advances in finaid a decade ago, it’s just not now. Perhaps it’s still perpetuated because it’s easy to make these kind of comparisons in suburbia: It’s easy to call a school in a city diverse because it feels diverse, while a school in suburbia is going to feel quiet, exclusive, and yes, even less intellectual. </p>

<p>I have found that Princeton students are overwhelmingly normal in dress, political opinions, etc. They are decidedly less “edgy” than their peers at Columbia or UChicago or Brown. But to make the jump to anti-intellectual–or even just non-intellectual–is unfair and untrue. For the most part, I’ve found students at Princeton to be exceptionally bright and exceptionally interested in what they’re studying or reading or musing about. I’ve had great discussions about everything from Rousseau to Obama to Kid Cudi in the dining halls and my dorm courtyards and in precept. Even my neighbor, an engineer and wrestler–two things that hardly scream “intellectual”–can’t stop talking about his class on Rome.</p>

<p>Moreover, the claim that Princeton is heavily into partying isn’t entirely true. It’s just that our party scene is largely contained on a single street. It’s visible and accessible in a way that house parties at Chicago aren’t. However, that doesn’t necessarily translate to heavy partying. I know very few people who go out more than once a week–though certainly there’s a contingent that parties on Thursdays and Saturdays–and I go out maybe once every three weeks without feeling excluded from the social scene. Most people I know rarely, if ever, drink to excess. When I go out, I do so to dance, listen to music, and socialize with free beer–not to get wasted and do idiotic things. My younger sister visited this weekend, and I felt perfectly comfortable bringing her along to the clubs. Additionally, the sheer variety offered by the eating clubs means that there’s a weekend experience for almost everyone, including people who just want to sit and talk (Terrace, where I am half the time). </p>

<p>UChicago has done a fantastic job with its “life of the mind” advertising. And from what I can tell, it’s largely true. Hell, it almost–almost–convinced me to come a year ago. But that doesn’t mean other schools, and Princeton especially, don’t also cultivate the “life of the mind” and embrace intellectualism.</p>

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<p>To hippo: I think all of these versus threads are a bit absurd to be honest. Unless we have a student who has had undergraduate experiences at both of these schools or students with parallel experiences, it’s blatantly absurd to compare experiences, prestige factors, etc.</p>

<p>This being said, it’s just as absurd to make claims regarding the intellectual prestige of the University of Chicago in comparison to its peers. I do not know if you are addressing undergraduate studies at both schools—if you are, I will not attempt to discuss this: I personally believe that undergraduates studies at any of the top 25-50 institutions will land the same individual in the exact same place. Papers written by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale suggest the same thing.</p>

<p>“There are very few fields, if any, in which Chicago is better than Princeton.” Chicago, Princeton, Harvard, Berkeley and Stanford have existed as the comparable elite institutions for research mathematics and physics. Any graduate student in Mathematics and Physics at any of those universities will tell you the same thing. There is a reason these programs can attract Fields Medalists and Nobel Prize Winners. They understand the caliber of the graduate talent they are working with.</p>

<p>And in terms of economics and finance, your post suggests that you are unaware of how entrenched the UofC is. Every single modern microfoundation theory taught today in colleges is built upon UofC economics. Modern macroeconomics is developed as either a response, critique or continuation of Chicago economics. Modern Portfolio Theory, Efficient Market hypothesis, Black-Scholes, are all central to the school’s contributions to the world of economics and finance.</p>

<p>“According to the NSF baccalaureate origins survey, Chicago barely outperforms Princeton for PhD production. Although Chicago has capitalized on its “life of the mind” mantra in all of its admissions materials in a desperate attempt to set itself apart, universities like Harvard and Princeton hardly suffer from a lack of intellectual firepower.” Yes, the UofC outperforms nearly all of its peers in PhD production. The life of the mind mantra is also extremely prevalent here on campus. I don’t doubt that other schools are intellectual too–not really sure of your point here.</p>

<p>"Princeton has a more beautiful campus, is a lot wealthier with more resources, is more prestigious, is ranked higher overall and in most departments, has a more tight-knit community with more loyal alums, and is more fun. Almost all Princeton students live on campus, unlike Chicago where barely more than half do so, which lends itself to a more collegiate atmosphere. "</p>

<p>Princeton has a bigger endowment. This enables it to maintain greater operational capital. I’m not sure how else the difference in capital matters unless we are in a liquidity crunch. I don’t know the Princeton living-on-campus figure but the students “living off-campus” at the UofC live in Hyde Park. If I were to guess about Princeton, I would guess that its suburban environment disallows college living costs to subsist in the local housing market. Not sure how that contributes to your “collegiate atmosphere” idea.</p>

<p>So for the OP: seriously, visit all of the campuses. Ask all of the students, and then imagine yourself at all of the campuses. To suggest that one multibillion dollar institution is better than another and that this is somehow is universally OBVIOUS, is nonsense. None of us would claim to know if investing in Proctor and Gamble would give you higher returns than investing in IBM. It’s just as much nonsense for anybody, especially someone who has neither experienced life at these campuses nor published true academic work to claim something to the contrary.</p>

<p>To end, John Boyer, dean of the college here, does enjoy telling this one quote. Hugo Sonnenschein—former Provost of Princeton and former president at the UofC—used to say that at Princeton he could publish a couple of papers, be promoted to tenure and then not be compelled to publish ever again. He would still be able to converse with fellow faculty at Princeton without worry and socialize about the status of the University. At the UofC, if anyone, even the President, failed to publish in 1-2 years he would be socially ostracized by everybody, including junior faculty. Take a look at the date of Paul Krugman’s last published paper. Take a look at any UofC professor’s web page—and their working papers. I think it’s quite telling.</p>

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<p>Princeton’s engineering school is better than Chicago’s (oh wait, Chicago doesn’t have one). Chicago’s business school is better than Princeton’s (oh wait, Princeton doesn’t have one). Where the schools overlap, it’s more-or-less a dead heat. As for “breadth and depth,” dream on: They’re both great schools with major holes in their coverage, unlike goliaths Stanford and Harvard. (As for Berkeley, are you from the 70s or something?)</p>

<p>The mystery to me, given Princeton’s huge financial resources, is why it isn’t better than it is. A lot better. On an endowment-per-student basis, Princeton is the world’s wealthiest university, with per capita resources, I believe, five times those of UChicago. But now try to measure its edge-in-aggregate; you’ll need a micrometer for the job. What’s up with that anyway?</p>

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<p>What does “better” mean here? Rankings? Strength of programs? </p>

<p>Regardless, yes: Princeton is the wealthiest university per capita. And it shows in financial aid (which UChicago is working on but has yet to match) and general student funding (not to mention maintaining the grounds and buildings). They give out grants to undergrads like candy for everything from summer study abroad to the pursuit of the arts–even for students who, like me, aren’t on finaid. Some classes offer free trips–yes, airfare and everything included–to exotic locations over Fall and Winter break. Want to start a student group? You’ll probably get not only approval but funding. Etc. None of this really impacts our academic programs, but…duh.</p>

<p>I guess I just don’t understand what your point is. Princeton is richer. It shows in some aspects of student life. Academically, it doesn’t really make a difference. And?</p>

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<p>…and that amazes me.</p>

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<p>My advice, go back to Princeton and tell them, in much nicer words, that they can make your decision for you by increasing your fin aid. We all know Princeton can throw away money at kids who deserve it. It’s a no lose situation. If Princeton gives you a dollar more, go to Princeton.</p>

<p>Dont believe folks when they say that UChicago is better. It isn’t. (Unless you can finagle a way to work directly with the professors, the education you get is the same.) </p>

<p>Princeton’s alumni network is richer, more influential and will vastly help you in getting a job and future promotions. UChicago can’t match that, unless you want to get a PhD instead.</p>

<p>The prestige factor is also at Princeton’s advantage. The momentum is on UChicago’s side, but mainly because the College has been a laggard compared to the other UChicago schools who have always been at the very top.</p>

<p>In my opinion, among HYP, Princeton is actually less snotty than H or Y, so take the comments on the eating clubs with a grain of salt. They are already modest by east coast standards :slight_smile: But compared to midwesterners, the connecticut/park avenue elites are just too much to take.</p>

<p>I say go to Princeton, all other things being equal. but if you visit the schools and really buy into the whole life of the mind meme, UChicago would do just fine, too</p>