<p>Columbia holds tremendous appeal for the double major option with the ability to pursue music performance at a deeper level through the Music Performance Program (<em>not</em> the joint program with Juilliard). Difficulty of admissions to Columbia aside, can anyone share experiences with this program? I'm referring to this one: <a href="http://music.columbia.edu/mpp">http://music.columbia.edu/mpp</a></p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>I recently heard a performance of the Daedalus Quartet, who are in residency there and are listed under the faculty. The first violinist was wonderful. The have a great associate faculty list, but it wasn’t clear to me from the website how the program works. Wish I could help more.</p>
<p>Thanks, @glassharmonica – I agree the website’s a bit… underinformative? But the program’s been around a looooong time… no doubt in more than one iteration. I think it may be one we just will have to visit and really ask good questions. If anyone else out there has “boots on the ground” experience (or is willing to pick the brain of someone they know who does/did), please post!</p>
<p>I can give you some insight on the MPP for jazz musicians. I’m not sure it’s exactly the same for classical, but I think it’s similar. The program is very good, but it’s important to understand that it’s not a “double major” program. You can major in music at Columbia but not in performance - you get a B.A. and it’s an academic music degree. And you don’t have to major in music to participate in the MPP (my son is not majoring in music but is fully involved in the jazz MPP).</p>
<p>Basically, the program allows qualified students (it requires an audition) to take lessons in their instrument with adjunct faculty and to participate in orchestra, band, ensemble or combo performance under the direction of adjunct faculty and receive Columbia credit for it. You get one credit for the lessons and one credit for the performance group each semester. The typical academic course gives three or four credits, so the combination of lessons and performance doesn’t quite get you the equivalent of a full academic course - but it has allowed my son to take one fewer academic course per semester than he otherwise would and still be on track to meet graduation requirements, which frees up more time for his music.</p>
<p>My son has been very happy with the faculty - his teacher for lessons is a fairly well known professional jazz musician who has really helped my son’s development and my son has also been very happy with his combo leader and his combo. The level of musicianship of the students in his combo is very high. Three of the students in the jazz performance program are also part of the Columbia-Juilliard exchange, which gives you an idea of the level of musicianship at the top end - they’re at the level you’d find at a top conservatory. The depth of talent is not as great as you’d find at a conservatory, but the performance groups are generally organized by level of ability, so if you’re at that level, you can find other musicians to play with at the same level.</p>
<p>For Columbia students who are able to get into the Columbia-Juilliard exchange (which is very hard), you can take lessons with a Juilliard teacher and participate in performance with other Juilliard students and get Columbia credit for that too (I think that gives you three or four credits, so it fully takes the place of an academic course). Students in the Columbia-Juilliard exchange can do that and also participate in the MPP if they want. There are also many other music resources in the city - MSM is just a few blocks away and there are excellent musicians at New School, Mannes, NYU and other schools in the city. My son has been able to take advantage of these resources as well in terms of finding musicians to play with and performance opportunities around the New York area outside of Columbia.</p>
<p>Sounds pretty similar to programs at many liberal arts colleges and universities that don’t have a performance major but do provide some opportunity and some credits for performance. </p>
<p>@glassharmonica, that’s probably right, but I think potential advantages to the Columbia program over most other liberal arts colleges/universities are (1) the level of student-musicians the school attracts, (2) the quality of the adjunct faculty - given that many top jazz musicians are NY-based, the adjunct jazz faculty is amazing and I expect the same is probably true in classical, and (3) the music resources that NY provides outside of school. My son was admitted to some top conservatories and seriously considered them. His decision to go to Columbia was based on his belief that he could get the Columbia academic experience but still be able to pursue his music at a conservatory-like level, and I think he’s been able to do that. Though it has required quite a bit of initiative in taking advantage of the resources not only at Columbia but in the city outside of Columbia as well.</p>
<p>The level of student musicians the school attracts could possibly similar to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, so yes. I teach at Penn where there are similar performance opportunities and lesson opportunities, but from personal experience I’d say the level is likely higher at HYP. I’ve never heard of anyone choosing Columbia for music except though the Juilliard exchange. In the exchange, students are basically Columbia students who take lessons at Juilliard with an optional 5th year Master’s (but they have to reapply for that.) Still, there are some really terrific musicians to come out of the exchange, even if they don’t get a full conservatory experience. I’m not sure how involved the exchange students are in the Columbia music program. A few years ago my daughter was a ringer in some Columbia performances.</p>
<p>Another thought (just throwing into the hopper) is that MSM is right next door, so there might be some cross-pollination there. </p>
<p>Of course, jazz and classical are pretty different. I forget the instrument/genre of the OP’s daughter. As a student at a top academic university you will not get a conservatory experience, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s just a different thing. You’ll have a much richer academic education. I know many kids who opt for a liberal arts or university education at schools like the Ivies and then go on for an MM in music.</p>
<p>Thanks, @jazzpianodad – I appreciate the insight, especially about how the credits work, as I understand Columbia is one of those rare schools that doesn’t extend time to graduate; i.e. all coursework is expected to be completed in 4 years. With roughly a credit shy in each term, how does that translate for your son? I.e., does he do summer work, or a single double-up term each year, or, what-have-you? The academic program is very appealing for my scholar-musician, who is loath to give up either academic interests or musical ambitions. DC is not sold on Jyard and NEC, which DC sees as "cutthroat"rather than some schools where the perception is that they are more collegial or collaborative. How is the atmosphere in the MPP (again, recognizing that jazz and classical are not the same, but still…)?</p>
<p>@listenmissy, he’s really not “a credit shy each term” per se. One needs 124 credits to graduate, which works out to 15.5 credits per semester. One could cover that with four 4-credit courses, but the workload in 4-credit courses is meaningfully greater than 3-credit courses. Alternatively one could do one 4-credit course and four 3-credit courses, but then that’s five academic courses per semester. With the two credits per semester from music, my son typically does one 4-credit course and three 3-credit courses per semester, but he’s had a couple of semesters when he’s taken two 4-credit courses and two 3-credit courses, and he’s picked up a couple more credits from required phys ed and I think one or two other credits from one-off things. No academic work over the summer - he devotes his summers exclusively to music. In terms of the atmosphere in the MPP - at least on the jazz side - he’s found it to be extremely collegial and not at all competitive or cutthroat.</p>
<p>@glassharmonica, I’d agree that one doesn’t choose Columbia “for music” and it’s certainly not a conservatory experience. But there are some top quality, serious musicians there and one can pursue music at a very high level while still getting the academic experience. As for MSM, there’s no formal program between Columbia and MSM (though I think there is between Barnard and MSM) but, as you point out, it’s right next door. My son is good friends with a number of the students in the jazz program there, and he spends a lot of time there and plays with them regularly. I can’t speak for the cross-pollination between Columbia and MSM on the classical side - and I agree that jazz and classical are different - so if listenmissy’s DC is interested, it would be good to talk with the classical musicians at Columbia to get their perspective. </p>
<p>Sounds like it was a really great choice for your son, jazzpianodad!</p>
<p>@jazzpianodad thank you so much for these logistical details! So helpful and quite a relief, since summer music programs are considered de rigeur for those seriously pursuing classical music (is it the same for jazz, or does gigging work as well?) </p>
<p>Thank you also for your comments on the atmosphere of the MPP as well. It does sound like it was a great choice for your son, and certainly worth looking into further for my classical violinist. </p>
<p>@glassharmonica (post #6, wish CC could sort by threads) - Thank you for the observations on Penn vs HYP… hadn’t even considered Penn for music (likely would not consider non BM programs except for Columbia and Yale; particularly attractive for its BA/MM program). I agree with you both that one wouldn’t choose a traditional LAC or Uni “for the music” but when there is also a deep academic interest then it adds to the mix (thus the early querying about various options and permutations for study, performance, degrees, etc.)</p>
<p>Princeton has a performance program which is more well known than Columbia’s for classical music, vs. jazz, which Columbia has always been a draw for.) I would think Columbia’s MPP program is comparable, as @glassharmonica said to almost any college’s music program which has access to high level adjunct teachers, and a strong enough pool of peer players. If she chooses to go for a BA and study music on the side, or as her academic major, there are lots of choices.</p>
<p>Thanks, @SpiritManager – she really prefers a BM, but Columbia is such an appealing school. Interesting note about Princeton, because I think of Westminster but not for strings. I don’t think she is interested in Princeton. Columbia and Yale would be the only non-BM programs she’d consider, at least at this point. And for now, they are distant considerations for her… I am just trying to think outside the box, as we begin this journey.</p>
<p>Do know that at Yale, except for the rarified exceptions (some of whom have been on this forum) undergraduates study with grad students. I would imagine that violin would be one of the hardest studios to break into as an undergrad as it’s incredibly hard to get into as a grad student. (I’d look again at Princeton, btw.) And Williams, Vassar, and Swarthmore for BA’s with strong music programs.</p>
<p>@SpiritManager I sent you a pm. The Yale comment is helpful. FWIW, Williams, Vassar and Swarthmore are off the table—really, the BA exploration is me thinking broadly; dd is not interested, particularly… at least not at this point!</p>
<p>I posted on you other thread that your daughter might consider a college or university for the humanities or language or STEM or whatever she ends up wanting to study, and doing music via private lessons, w/performance as extracurricular and/or outside of school. </p>
<p>Have you considered Harvard/NEC? That is a BA/MM 5 year program. That said, some of the most talented musicians we knew there did not do any undergrad music study at all, but continued private study off campus and performed throughout undergrad years, both on campus and off. There are many paths.</p>
<p>Kids change a lot in the last years of high school. Some of us found that our sons and daughters needed to apply to several options (conservatory, college, double degree) and weren’t even totally sure when finally forced to decide in late April of senior year!</p>
<p>Along with Colleges that Change Lives I recommend a book entitled “Creative Colleges,” available online.</p>
<p>A lot of it comes down to what your D wants to do, does she really want a performance degree with a dual major/dual degree, would she be okay with that? Would she be okay where she does music, like at the Columbia program, kind of as an EC, where she would be studying privately (I don’t know who Columbia’s adjunct violin teachers would be)…</p>
<p>There are many tracks, but you also have to be careful with something like kids who have gone to college, didn’t study music there, but still went on to be a musician. In a lot of cases,. the ones who make it were kids who came into college already at a high level. There are a lot of kids on violin at a place like Juilliard pre college who end up going to a top ranked academic college like a HYP, play in the school performance program, take lessons on the side (often privately with teachers not necessarily associated with the school), and then some of those end up after graduation going into music, so it does happen.but again, many of these kids already were playing at very high levels and the lack of a BM program won’t really affect them (to give extreme examples, Yo Yo Ma didn’t study music in college, nor did Gil Shaham, but in both cases they already had artists management and so forth, so don’t necessarily mean anything…</p>
<p>What @GH says is true, schools in the ivy league tend to have strong music ensembles and such, in part because they give weight to music kids in admissions (with all other things equal). A lot of the kids in the top pre college programs are tracking towards those schools and are in music, in part, because it is well known that having that background helps (put it this way, the percent of kids at a school like Juilliard pre college on violin who end up in HYP’s would make many prep schools envious…the kids are academically strong, were good enough to get into the pre college and the schools favor it…). Plus at Columbia, if a kid wants a top orchestra, they could audition for the New York Youth Symphony, that plays at a very, very high level.</p>
<p>The Juilliard exchange program (which is not a true Joint program) is another option, in the exchange program the student gets to take lessons with a Juilliard teacher and do chamber (they can’t do orchestra, though) and they don’t take music classes at Juilliard. It is not easy to get into, but might provide what a student needs, since you are talking about Juilliard’s violin faculty, which ranges from strong to “holy…” in reputation, if not ability:). If you get into that, you also can audition for the Joint program, where you finish your undergrad at Columbia (I think 3 years), then go right into your MM at Juilliard. That is even more difficult to get into, it is a small percent of a small percent, but it is an option.</p>
<p>It really depends on her motives and motivations. A BM, whether conservatory or as part of a university, is a much deeper immersion, playing in a program like Columbia or Princeton, while there are high level students, is not going to be as deep, it won’t be as intense musically, and the student won’t be getting the theory and ear training and such BM students do, so they would have gaps in their knowledge and so forth that could be important. All forms of music are not the same, and Jazz is very different than classical music , with Jazz there are a lot more paths then with classical music. A kid going to columbia and doing jazz as an EC in effect, could also do gigs, and it is very possible to do that and then establish a jazz career, whereas in classical, especially on violin, that just doesn’t happen. There are a lot of working jazz musicians who never formally studied it in a conservatory or college program…(on the other hand, Bernie Williams, ex Yankee CF and a heck of a jazz guitarist, is going to MSM to get a degree because he wanted to learn the theory and so forth, he is a recorded jazz artist, performs regularly, but wanted that…:). </p>
<p>Myself, I would lean towards her doing a BM unless she is very, very sure of her ability and level and thinks she has the drive and motivation to kind of pull things towards her, with a BM there is a lot of push there, too, with the kind of environment it provides. </p>
<p>Joint programs like NEC/Harvard, NEC/Tufts are true joint programs, but note that a)they are very, very hard to get into, and B)are difficult, they don’t exactly make life easy in these programs and coordinating classes and such can be a hassle from what I have heard. They sound great on paper, but given how difficult they are to get into, and how difficult they can be when in them, they aren’t for everyone. </p>
<p>Thanks, @musicprnt – this is interesting and a lot to absorb. The BM rather than the BA in music is the primary drive. Again, (I think I’ve said it now on several threads), it is not my d who is interested in Columbia or its BA/MPP. It is I who am seeking more info. We are familiar with the NEC/Tufts and NEC/Harvard programs, which hold no appeal in large measure because of the logistics (unlike, say, CIM/CWRU, where there is a close collaboration AND a close geography). I think the likelier scenario will be a BM program at a music school that is either part of a larger university or the musical arm of a LAC (So, Eastman, Peabody, CIM, Oberlin) with an added BA in a humanities program, or a BM program with a dual major at a school that does not offer dual degrees (such as Frost). Then, of course, there’s the hybrid “BFA” at a place like Carnegie Mellon…</p>
<p>BTW all, this is great and a lot to absorb. Since it’s veering off the"nuts and bolts" of the Columbia, and since I’ve received a lot of information from folks via PM (thank you all. You know who you are!), I will bow out to pursue other lines of inquiry! I hope this thread will be helpful as well to others with the question about Columbia’s MPP :)</p>