<p>Okay Alumother and Epiphany made the point about generalizations but I still want to respond to Bay.</p>
<p>Given that 60% of students receive financial aid with the average grant being more than $35,000, that Princeton is the least expensive in tuition, room and board of all top 15 schools (Cal Tech comes in a close second) and that by any measure it is as racially and socio-economically diverse as any top school, it’s just silly to claim that there is a higher proportion of snobs or “rude” people at Princeton than any other top private U.</p>
<p>Bay, with affiliations to Yale and Harvard would have you believe that Princeton is somehow more snooty and exclusive. She has gone as far as to say that she knows three students who came back from there with an affected manner like Thurston Howell III (a Harvard man, btw). I seriously doubt this claim, unless she’s referring to students back in the 60s, when Gilligan’s Island was popular. She brushes off the Finals Clubs and Secret Societies and small Greek life at H and Y as if those were insignificant phenomenon because they include a small 10-15% of the students. As if there are no students feeling badly because they don’t make it into a club or don’t get tapped for Skulls & Bones. Well guess what, the Eating Club that has a rep for valuing wealth and connections comprises about 4% of students. And the vast majority of the rest of the student body could care less about not belonging to it. Are there some kids who get hurt feelings in the bicker process? Yes, and if it were up to me I’d eliminate it, just like I would get rid of the way rush is held at most schools, which Bay has strongly defended in the past, but the selection process is so not about elitist, Thurston Howell-type snobbery. </p>
<p>Some 70% of juniors and seniors belong to Eating clubs. Sophomores join second semester but only take an occasional meal there. That leaves 30% who choose other eating options as upperclassmen. If my daughter decides not to join a club, it will be because she wants to cook for herself and thinks taking her all her meals at the club would be less convenient. She knows she will occasionally accept invitations to eat with friends at clubs and will have plenty of opportunities to attend their parties.</p>
<p>The significant point here is that you can’t taint all those kids who decide to join a club, and be extension the system in general, as snobbish or elitist. It just isn’t so. Again the the question is not whether Princetonians have snobs among them, but whether there is any real evidence to suggest they have a higher percentage there than at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern or Smith.</p>
<p>Why do I feel like you are out to get me, Wildwood? I don’t give a rip about eating clubs and who joins them. I already said that. If you knew anything about me, you would know that I am one of the most vehement defenders of the Greek system on this board. I noted, however, that P is the only college I know of where the admin actually contributes $$ to its exclusive social clubs. I think that is an interesting fact.</p>
<p>I never said I thought P had more snobs than H or Y. You keep saying I said that. Please stop twisting my posts.</p>
<p>I did not know that Thurston Howell III was a Harvard man and I think that is great. I actually liked his character and thought he was likable, but he does have a verbal affectation. And, like I said, I think it is almost funny. Why do you ignore the fact that I said I know a P student who is and always was humble and pleasant? Why do you ignore the fact that I said I’d be deliriously thrilled if my son was admitted to P? If my son were to start speaking like Thurston Howell III, I’d think it was funny. Why don’t you?</p>
<p>^^^
You don’t get the uber-sensitivity because your genes must be akin to your kid at Harvard not your kid at Yale. <em>wink</em> (I hate the yellow smilies, BTW)</p>
<p>More seriously, I’d say there’s more ■■■■■■■■ and bashing of Princeton here than of Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Sometimes even the generally affable lose their temper.</p>
<p>I will hunt up my old posts, in which I review the good, the bad, and the rest, of Princeton as I’ve known it, and link them here.</p>
<p>The fact that people within the same socio-economic or cultural group don’t see each other as snobby or rude, doesn’t mean they aren’t viewed as snobby or rude by members of other groups who have different standards and expectations.</p>
<p>For example, an acquaintance who lives around Princeton was discussing having recently met a relative he didn’t know he had (he’s adopted). He mentioned how small the person’s house was, specifying the approximate square feet, and said he couldn’t imagine living in a home that small. I think the gist of his thinking was how much better off he was having been put up for adoption rather than growing up in that poor birth family. In his mind he’s being grateful. BUT, given that my house is the same square footage as the one being discussed, I didn’t view his comment in the same light.</p>
<p>Sorry, Bay. I’m really not out to get you, in general, but yes I am trying to call you an what I feel have been pretty blatant insinuations on this thread that Princeton is different in a negative way. See my post #111 where I cite the earlier posts that I object to and then again above where I quote you. Perhaps, I am reading too much into it, but I don’t think you can now say you weren’t implying that there is a greater air of arrogance or exclusivity at Princeton.</p>
<p>How funny you said that, because it is true! My D from H is a matter-of-fact, straightforward, non-touchy-feely type person whose feelings you couldn’t hurt with a sledge hammer. My D at Y has a huge empathetic side.</p>
<p>If anything, I was implying that Princeton has a reputation, and some of its students leave an impression, of arrogance and elitism. I think this has been confirmed ten-fold by others on this board. And so what? It is what it is, as mini said. No college is perfect, but P comes pretty close.</p>
<p>Bay, what I remember from one of the threads about sororities is you saying your daughter, in a residential college at a very elite university, needed to be in a sorority to be around like minded souls. Her college didn’t really adequately address her social needs. I didn’t respond at the time but have remembered it because it really struck a nerve. I have no idea if what you post is what your children believe. But it wasn’t imho a very good advertisement for Yale.</p>
<p>Possibly Bay, you don’t even realize that your posts are filled with extremely negative language about Princeton. </p>
<p>For example, take the phrase “I noted, however, that P is the only college I know of where the admin actually contributes $$ to its exclusive social clubs.” In that one sentence alone, you have damned the clubs as “exclusive” and indicated that the administration, by giving financial aid that covers the cost of the clubs, is doing something that promulgates the exclusivity (although as I noted before, if the administration didn’t cover the cost of the clubs, many of the posters on this thread would be excoriating it). And just because you then claim to deny that you think it’s an issue, doesn’t take the sting out of language such as </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ask yourself how you’d respond if I replaced the word Princeton with the word Harvard or Yale. </p>
<p>Like Alumother, I see more bashing of Princeton on this board than Harvard and Yale (but I don’t read the Yale or Harvard forums that closely, so I might be wrong). I was in a club when I was at Princeton and then dropped out to become independent. I have had mixed views of the clubs over the years, but the one thing I believe is that a system where ANY student can join a club, where clubs are generally open to all for parties and where the administration covers the cost of joining a club is not exclusive; rather it is inclusive. Of course, kids can be hurt by not getting into bicker clubs (just like they can be hurt by not getting into the a theater or dance group they’re interested in) and I too favor more of a “match” system than the current one. However, as a parent, I was also delighted when my daughter could spend a Saturday night safely going from open party to open party with her friends, rather than sitting in her room or hoping someone invited her to something. And, as a Penn parent as well, I can tell you that I thought the Princeton system worked better for most kids than at Penn, where if you have a son who doesn’t join or get into a fraternity and isn’t of legal drinking age, the social life can be very sparse.</p>
<p>I’d think it was another day at the office. As I wrote earlier, Harvard is bashed constantly, from my point of view, and we don’t care. We know what it is like there, we know that it is the subject of intense scrutiny, and we also know that some of what is said has some truth to it. So what? I don’t feel the need to dissect people (like you) who relay experiences they have had with Harvard people or repeat stereotypes they have heard. I think that information is valuable, because it informs us of how the outside world views Harvard and what D may be up against.</p>
<p>alh,
I don’t view my role here to provide good advertising for Yale. If what I wrote (which I do not remember those combination of details, but it is not far off from the truth), causes you to dislike Yale, then so be it. Why would you not want to know others’ real life experiences, whether good or bad? Isn’t that with this board is for?</p>
<p>What I like about the grad college in Princeton is its fantastic medieval styled dining hall, that looks like it should be populated by knights in shining armor. All the on-campus grad students eat there and, although many eat with their department members, mingling is easy, and many groups join in the walks back and forth to the gc at dinner time. </p>
<p>What I don’t like about the eating clubs for undergrads at Princeton is that the students are segregated at mealtimes into their clubs - since mealtime is such a prime mingling time, I think it is excessively restrictive - especially with financially needy students tied into eating at their clubs, as opposed to being a paying guest at another, or suggesting a meal in town. With the figure quoted as 70% of upperclassmen in eating clubs, this is a huge percentage of the student body - isn’t that a higher number than fraternities and sororities at other schools?</p>
<p>That being said, everyone who applies to Princeton knows the Princeton system, and if they don’t like it, they can go somewhere else, or attend and try to change the system from within. </p>
<p>As for the column that started this post, I wonder whether the newspaper was giving the author the opportunity to become seasoned in her brand new school before becoming known throughout the school as a brand new freshman attacking upperclassmen, a stigma that now she will probably carry throughout her years there.</p>
<p>Back to the claim of rudeness. My D interacted with many college coaches when she was being recruited. I interacted with a good number of them too, since I accompanied her on unofficial visits, and answered the phone. If she wasn’t home, sometimes the coach spoke with me instead. Any guesses as to which Ivy coach was the only one who was a bit rude and arrogant? To be fair, I don’t think HE thought he was being rude or arrogant, but we were not alone in that impression. He left an athlete friend of D’s in tears after her informal visit with him. During one exchange that I recall, he was probing me regarding D’s feeling about the school and team. I mentioned that D would be interested in meeting the other coaches as well, like she had done at other schools. He replied in an irritated tone, “What coaches? The baseball coach? The football coach?” Umm, no. Any assistant coaches or event coaches who might be working with the team. He said, “Well, I’m it. There is no one else.” OK then. The odd thing is that there are definitely other coaches involved.</p>
<p>I agree that Harvard gets bashed more than the others. </p>
<p>But don’t you think the Ivies are complicit in creating and maintaining an air of exclusivity and elitism? That’s their niche and calling card and it’s a reputation that they want to preserve. If anyone could get into and succeed at Princeton, it wouldn’t be Princeton. And if Harvard had wanted to promote a different sort of air, they wouldn’t have had their admissions guy give an info. session wearing a tweed jacket and bow tie.</p>
<p>At any college, there is going to be some level of divide between those students who have no choice but to eat in their assigned dining hall for all meals, and those students who have the financial means to go into the local town (or nearby city) for off-campus restaurant dining and other activities. Such is life. Unless you physically take away everyone’s spending money, that’s how life works. This is no different at East Bumble State U as it is at Princeton. </p>
<p>Anyway, if someone truly is “snobby,” then I don’t see what’s so wrong if they then choose their own little snobby friends to hobnob with the snobs over – what’s the great loss if they aren’t integrated into everyone else’s social life? This whole thing is sort of – these people are snobby, so it’s unfortunate that they all cluster together instead of being with us.</p>
<p>Because the significance of affiliation isn’t linked to the difficulty of admission (at least in the case of Penn State and Mizzou – Notre Dame acceptance is no walk in the park).</p>