<p>I do have to agree with Black Suits. We KNEW CMU was exclusive but not that they were taking 3 kids from the general audition pool this year! We went to a traveling CMU college presentation and fell in love with everything about the school. Sadly, the presenters didn't know much about the fine arts program, and if we had heard the phrase "we're taking 6 girls," that might have changed our plans. If your kid is going into MT, you are spending a lot of money on lessons, coaches, summer programs, head shots, audition trips, not to mention HIGH tuition if your kid gets into one of the good schools. We would have saved ourselves about $500 by taking a pass on CMU.</p>
<p>Responding to the back and forth about what is immoral, etc., it does seem a bit greedy for a school like CMU to collect approx $80,000.00 in audition fees to acccept a handful of students. We already paid the fee for academic application. I would assume they do not hire extra staff to deal with the audition requests and the personnel at the auditions are faculty and present students. The only added expense is their travel for off campus auditions, which all other schools do, and the majority do not charge an audition fee. Also, how would a "normal" parent (not one who is a college counsellor or someone with inside info) know that CMU had a deferral who was in the bridge collapse that would be taking one of the few female MT spots. If you called admissions, do you really think they would honestly tell you how many deferrals already consumed spots your child is vyig for? I am not a disgrunlted parent with an axe--luckily my D has MT options for college. But their is a fairness issue here. Is our $80,000 used to defray tuition for the accepted strudents? If you read the facebook comments of the accpeted students, CMU is not big with financial aid.</p>
<p>To clarify....</p>
<p>I did not learn how many audition for how many slots at CMU from a GENERAL CMU information session. We attended ON CAMPUS auditions and there was a session with the head of the program who clearly stated how many audition and how many they take. Of course that was after we were there but I do believe you can contact ANY school and obtain this information. This sort of information is shared on this site all the time. Let me restate that I had NO (that is ZERO) inside information because I counsel students. I looked into this as a parent. If I have students, I research schools directly, have them ask directly and also read CC and hear from those who attend or apply to these schools and gather information up. My point is that NO school that I have come across has been DISHONEST or IMMORAL about sharing this information. Many told it at their BFA information sessions outright or volunteered such information when asked by prospective families. I COMPLETELY understand that some parents didn't KNOW this but I don't fault the schools for that. Research all of your questions....if they are not on websites, contact the school directly. Of course, read CC and you learn a LOT too. :D I have NO inside information at ANY school more than any other parent can find out. My kids researched their schools and also visited. </p>
<p>As far as my knowing that CMU took a student who was accepted last year who could not attend this year due to injuries from the bridge collapse....I learned it both on CC and on facebook and again, had NO inside information. When it comes to college admissions, try to research what you can directly with schools and also network with people. CC is good for the networking. I only learned that one fact just mentioned VERY recently and not back when auditions were in progress. However, in my D's year, they took three MT girls I believe. Yeah, I do question whether it was worth the great expense of traveling to CMU to audition. That is a question all families must decide after gathering up information and the odds of admission. I do not fault CMU at all for any dishonesty or any immorality. </p>
<p>Highly selective admissions are very very very chancy....whether we are talking top BFA in MT programs or elite colleges such as the Ivy League. I run into MANY unrealistic people in this process. Arm yourself with information and build very balanced lists. I don't regret my kid auditioning for CMU although the expense was a lot for the very low odds as it is informative to visit a variety of schools to help affirm one's decision about where to attend and to know what is out there. She did make the wait list there but it was NOT one of her two top choices. I also find that many students in my work when they first come to me, have only heard of the top reknowned programs (ie., CMU, CCM, NYU, UMich and others) and have them on the brain and for SOME students, these schools are not realistic for them and there are others where these schools would be appropriate but still long odds due to the low admit rates. But some students' college lists are not appropriate to their skill sets and part of my job is helping them come up with realistic balanced lists that are individualized for them. Some still are not realistic and try for top programs when they may not be contenders. Still, even if one of the top talented students in the country, you still have a long shot to get in. </p>
<p>The more information people learn about this process, the better equipped they are to create realistic lists that should yield SOME positive results. I have seen some families who have researched this fully on CC and often those who have done so, have had appropriate lists for them and have ended up with a school to attend. Try to garner as much information as you can. You don't need a college counselor to do that. I am well informed and have kept abreast of it all but it is due to much research and not any inside information that I am privy to. My children also fully researched their schools, as well as visited them. Again, at the 8 BFA in MT programs we visited, we were told how many audition, how many they accept and how many they hope to yield at every BFA information session. No reps from any school were dishonest. We have never felt "taken". We armed ourselves with information and KNEW going into highly selective admissions to set low expectations of admissions and therefore were not shocked or disappointed that much when a denial came through as that was to be expected. Further, the kids built college lists that were appropriate for them but might not be the right list for the next person. </p>
<p>Time and again on CC, I see people ask....which schools offer MT? and then they create a list of schools that offer it that sound good but do not assess which schools fit their academic qualfications and their artistic qualifications and balanced out the odds. You can't just look for MT schools. It is crucial that a college list is appropriate to the candidate both academically and artistically, and that the list is well balanced in terms of odds so that nobody should be left with NO acceptances to college. I can't emphasize enough the importance of the right list. I meet a lot of unrealistic people in my line of work. Know the odds at every school to which you plan to apply. Then, plan a college list appropriate to your qualifications and take into account the selectivity at each college and plan accordingly. CMU is a lottery ticket, so to speak, even for the top talented kids. If you are not a top talented candidate, the odds are neglible. I am sorry for those who didn't fully have the information in hand but I hope those who come next are reading and arm themselves with this basic information....which can be garnered from ALL schools, including CMU, if you ask, and then surely right here on CC, there are a LOT of well informed parents and students who have done the research and willingly share such information.</p>
<p>How do you feel about the $80,000 they collected? Since you did not address that, does that mean you have no issue with it? About the question regarding deferrals, is that the type of quesiton you know an admissions officer would answer?</p>
<p>All colleges collect application fees. If a school has an additional admissions process, like an audition, they college for that. It is part of this process. I have a daughter who just applied to Master of Architecture programs and that was expensive as she had to have a professionally printed portfolio for each application and that added up a lot. She had to pay PER portfolio for each school. The admit rate at the schools was VERY low. While you may not realize this, processing applications and holding auditions has some expenses on the college's end. Yes this is expensive for the families. Tell me about it, LOL. It cost a lot to attend the auditions we went to. It cost a lot for the visits for both my kids. It cost a lot for head shots. It cost a lot for the architecture portfolios. It cost a lot for the score reports. It cost a lot for the application fees and audition fees. These expenses go with this process. While it was very difficult for us to afford, it is a small amount compared to the cost of attending for four years. I see nothing unfair in collecting application and audition fees. Just processing this stuff takes staff. Having pianists on hand cost money. And so on and so forth. Nobody forces you to apply to these schools. Apply to less schools. Apply to schools where you have a greater chance of acceptance. My point is that I understand disappointment and I understand not being fully informed. But I was responding to that the schools were NOT dishonest and NOT immoral as asserted by others. </p>
<p>As far as the one deferral......I heard it through the grapevine online recently. I doubt the school would have lied if asked. How did the others know about it? Likely through the school or through current students. People network. People research. People ask questions directly about how many slots, etc. Again, in my D's year, I think they took 3, or possibly four, MT female applicants. That is not so far different than this year at CMU and my D applied three years ago. You could look right ON their website and see how many girls and boys are in the MT and in the Acting classes by year. At the information session, they announced in my D 's year, that 1200 auditioned and they would had 10 MT slots and 18 Acting slots and that they tend to take more boys than girls. Nobody kept any secrets. That's my point.</p>
<p>The whole issue boils down to being an informed consumer. Colleges are a business like any other business in many respects. The application process is often dictated by open market conditions. Anyone who does not approach the college application process with the same arms length due diligence as with any other business transaction leaves themselves open to later feeling that they were somehow misled or taken advantage of. I think that too often, because it is an "educational/academic" endeavor, parents tend not to approach this process with this perspective.</p>
<p>Before my daughter applied to any schools, we went through a process of interviewing the schools. We visited the schools and met not only with admissions but also with department reps. We asked every conceivable question we could think of, including the size of the program and gender mix, how many kids audition, how many are accepted, how the audition process works, what is looked for in an audition. While at the time of the audition the schools would be evaluating our D and deciding whether to accept her, this was our opportunity to determine whether the school was worthy of even receiving our D's application. Every school we visited answered our questions, including CMU.</p>
<p>So when my daughter applied to CMU, she did it with "eyes wide open". We knew how the process there worked, the numbers and the odds. My daughter decided it was worth the shot. Of course, knowing the odds at CMU as well as at all the schools to which she applied, we didn't put "all our eggs" in the "audition program" basket. If you don't think the odds at a particular school are worth the cost of applying, then don't apply. It is disingenuous, however, to after the fact complain that you were "ripped off" because of the "odds". The info was there for those who took the time to ask. And no, I am not defending CMU because my daughter was accepted there, she was not. But let's not blame the schools for conducting their business the way the market permits them to unless they engage in duplicitous and unfair practices, which is not the case here.</p>
<p>Who would deny their child an audition at CMU for $80.00? No one. But that is not the point. Can you explain why CMU believes it needs to collect $80,000 in audition fees and the vast majority of other schools do not? Of course it is their perogative to charge whatever they want and at least 1,000 parents/students spent that money for that sliver of hope. But try not to focus on the consumer side. Just simply answer why they need to collect $80,000? If the answer is "because they can", even if they do not need it, that speaks volumes about someone's mindset. The answer cannot be travel expenses--every other school has practially the same expenses.</p>
<p>Freedom,</p>
<p>Kudos to you on your maturity and sensibility toward your plan. It sounds as if you've really thought this through and will come out even stronger for next year. I imagine it would be daunting, especially as a male, to compete against students sometimes two years older. I know many young men whose voices are nowhere near settled at age 17. Please keep us posted throughout your process. We wish you well as you continue on your journey!</p>
<p>Regarding the odds, I believe I as so many others also mentioned somewhere else how we feel gathering information or partnering with someone who can help you do so is so very very important. I know for our experience at Ithaca, Elon, and Otterbein (already mentioned), info on acceptance rates was volunteered/ initiated by the staff. Even still, many parents at the info sessions seemed to have that question in their notes anyway, and still asked the question. So, in fact, it was mentioned several times and even broken down for M/T vs Acting, etc. There is a lot of research to do in this process, but I believe the schools will be candid with you if you ask directly. If they are not, we suggest you try to connect with current students, individual faculty, etc (keeping in mind that their data might not be exactly accurate.) Finally, I guess if you can't get a straight answer, you need to make a judgement call - still not easy to do, I know. </p>
<p>Last, but not least, this forum itself is a wealth of information. I believe most of the acceptance rates information is fairly well represented here on most of the schools. Nevertheless, I believe it is still info that should be confirmed once the student begins compiling their list of schools where they feel they can learn and thrive, no matter what the outcome is. Hopefully, this forum can continue to help in this way.</p>
<p>I agree with everything Michael wrote in post 626. </p>
<p>triumph, Is CMU's audition fee per person different than say, the one at CCM or another comparable school? I don't know the current audition fees per applicant at each school. </p>
<p>If you are looking at the TOTAL fees CMU collects, you have to realize that more students apply to CMU than certain other BFA programs. It is in demand and one of the top schools for this. Similarly with BA schools, the number of applicants is very high to the most selective ones in the country and likewise, a very low percentage get in. You can't compare total fees collected as the number who apply varies depending on the school's reputation, the selectivity, etc. Actually, the more applicants, the heavier the workload in processing that number of applicants and having staff to audition that number including on weekends, etc. You could compare the cost of a single application/audition fee, however, but I don't think comparing the total fees collected is reasonable since the amount who apply to certain schools varies widely based on demand, selectivity and prestige.</p>
<p>NYU has more audition applicants than CMU--their workload is greater--they do not charge an audition fee and their college application fee is less than CMU. So prestige, number of applicants, demand, etc does not explain why NYU does not charge and CMU and other schools do.</p>
<p>Juilliard also auditions more than a thousand kids for their freshmen drama class each year and charges, I believe, $100 for their application, which includes the audition. That's expensive (maybe not as expensive as CMU, but still expensive) and what's more, Juilliard seldom takes more than a few kids who just graduated from high school into their freshmen drama class. Most people entering Juilliard drama are older than recent high school graduates and have either had more life experience, or else have already gone through an undergrad program. Yet more than 1,000 kids -- many of them high school seniors -- still show up at Juilliard for auditions and give it a whirl!
As MichaelNKat said, this is an issue of being an informed consumer. When my daughter and I were researching BFA programs, one of the first things we asked were how many kids were accepted and how many auditioned. (That information is readily available to anyone.) Even without the special circumstances this year at CMU (several kids basically had to, for various reasons, defer their last year's admission to this year), we were abundantly aware that CMU only take a small handful of girls for both MT and acting each year, out of more than 1,000 who audition. But my D also knew that <em>someone</em> had to get in and wanted to try. I supported that. But yes, we knew that going in because we did research ahead of time.
Bottom line is: research this stuff ahead of time, and if you don't like the odds, vote with your feet and don't audition or apply. Frankly, there is little else you can do.</p>
<p>If you do not like the oods at a school OR you do not like the application or audition fees, do not apply. You have a choice. There is nothing unfair or dishonest about any of this. </p>
<p>For instance, my D was not into the cut policy or atmosphere at a particular prestigious BFA in MT program and opted to not apply. However, I recommend the program to others who are OK with that policy. Different strokes for different folks. We all have a choice. We all should arm ourselves with as much information as possible to make choices that we are comfortable with.</p>
<p>triumph, I think you may have misunderstood my reference to prestige, numbers and demand. I didn't give that as an excuse for charging an audition fee. I was suggesting that you compare audition/application fees at individual schools as I am not positive how they vary per school as it has been a while for us. When I brought up prestige, numbers and demand was ONLY in reference to comparing the TOTAL figure they take in when you mentioned $80,0000 in audition fees which I would not compare with another school who auditions less students, may have less demand or prestige and isn't in the same ballpark. I was suggesting to compare app/aud fees per individual per school, and not the total they take in. </p>
<p>Let's also remember that these are private institutions who can set their own fees and consumers can decide whether they want to buy in or not.</p>
<p>Triumph, the point is that CMU, like most BFA programs, has put together a business model in which audition fees play a role. I bet that when the drama department at CMU, as well as other schools, sit down to work out their annual budget and figure out what to seek from the university in appropriations, that the revenue stream from audition fees goes into the mix. While I agree with you that $80,000 in audition fees compared to the size of the freshman class seems hugely out of proportion, the disparity could be attributable to many reasons, only one of which is "corporate greed" or an arrogant "because we can" attitude.</p>
<p>I am not attempting here to defend Carnegie Mellon or any other specific program. But I think if most of us knew the cost of running a private college or university, we would be very surprised.</p>
<p>i know of many BFA colleges do not charge for auditions, its the job of the auditors! thats BS as far as im concerned</p>
<p>As others have said, what it boils down to is the fact that you need to be an informed consumer. This is true for any college admissions process but even more so for those which require an audition. Anyone who goes into this process and does not know the details of each school to which they're applying, hasn't done their homework. There isn't a program out there that will not provide you with the information about how many students apply and audition, how many students they generally make offers to, and how many students they hope to enroll. This information is readily available to anyone who takes the time to ask the question or do a little research. You don't need to have some connection to someone in the admissions offices, you don't need to be a counsellor, you don't need to be knowledgeable, you just need to ask. Every kid who is applying to college and who makes a list of possible schools should be looking at admissions percentages, not just kids who want to study theatre. How else does one determine which schools are good ones for the list? It's part of the research which should be done long before application time.</p>
<p>I'm not defending CMU either. In fact, I'm still waiting for a refund for my D's audition fee from 2003! She got into Tisch E.D. and we withdrew her app to CMU. They promised to refund the audition fee and it has yet to arrive. ;) The fact is, CMU, and a few others (?), charge a fee for auditioning. I have no idea why, nor does it really matter, because a prospective student must make the decision as to whether or not they want to audition there, and if they do, then they have to pay the fee. Simple as that. CMU is an expensive school, and as Michael said, they have, for whatever reason, included this audition fee revenue as part of their business model. I'm sure if someone were truly interested, they could inquire and get an answer as to why there is a fee, and where that money goes. It doesn't seem to deter anyone from auditioning. </p>
<p>Bottom line, for those of you who are juniors or parents of juniors, do your research, carefully and thoroughly. Inform yourselves. You are looking at four years of school and costs which can range upwards of $100,000 to as high as $200,000. That, in and of itself, should be worth your time and dedicated research. After reading this thread each day for a while now, I can't help but think of all the useful information here. I wonder if this thread should be stickied/tacked to the top of the forum as a resource for next year's crowd. Just a thought.</p>
<p>Which, if any, schools charged auditionees accompanist fees?</p>
<p>I don't think any charge accompanist fees to my knowledge. That topic came up when someone was questioning what possible expenses a school could have in holding 1200 auditions! :D Some schools apparently charge an audition fee and I was saying that accompanists are one cost, as well as processing all the applications and staff to handle them, and the travel to off site auditions, and the fact that auditions are often on weekends, and other things I haven't bothered to figure out that are involved in running such an operation. Other schools may eat that cost in other ways in their budget and some may opt to charge a fee for an audition.</p>
<p>As for giving out info on auditions, we were at Ithaca recently and I posed that question, deliberately. The admissions officer was very open and stated that they audition between 800 and 1000 per year for fewer than 20 slots. There was a gasp in the room and the man to my left nearly fell off his chair. She was calm and confident and added that numbers have been increasing for auditions and their course enrollment has not, and will not in the forseeable future. She seemed to have no qualms about sharing the info. While I am at it, she said that if you aren't a theater or MT major you can pretty much forget ever getting a part in anything except student-run productions.........another important thing to know. I asked her that, also. I'd rather have the brutally true facts up front so I know what my D. is dealing with.</p>
<p>I did hear of a singer who was required to send $ for an accompanist before his audition at Ithaca. It is possible that I misunderstood and the fee was for the audition, but his mother was pretty definite about it. My thinking was that it augured poorly for future extra expenses for any student who would go there. </p>
<p>That is a major issue, which is not often considered by singers in making the decision where to attend. In many schools, the collaborative pianist is provided as part of the lessons, work study pianists for beginning singers, graduate students for upper division repertory, and staff pianists for graduate students. At other schools the student is required to either hire or coerce a pianist to accompany at lessons and in rehearsal. This results in no small expense. Unsympathetic administrators have "explained" it to me as the balancing issue for singers who do not have to buy instruments. Little do they know or realize all the extras singers get stuck paying. </p>
<p>If the school has a degree in collaborative piano, i.e. accompanying, like Michigan, there will be a good supply of pianist required to put in studio time as part of their education. Generally a school with a good sized graduate program will use this service as assistantship opportunity. Check into the issue when making the final choice, especially as a financial issue. If all else fails, take up with a pianist romantically, and do not have a fight right before exams, juries, and auditions!</p>