Commisserate here: Rejections...HS Class of 2008

College Majors Musical Theater Major
661

<p>I have often thought that MT should move to pre-screening, to avoid many of the issues that I read on this forum.</p>

<p>I don't have a child in MT, but a senior who applied in straight music (BM). He had pre-screenings for all of his schools, but one (the "safety"). I was actually glad, although it made for additional stress in the fall, with preparing and mailing CDs. But I really think, by the time he got to auditions, having passed the pre-screens, we knew he was in the running everywhere, even for programs that had only two openings in his instrument (s).</p>

<p>There weren't 1200 auditioners, or whatever crazy number CMU auditioned, for his instruments. There were perhaps 50-100 auditioners per instrument, prescreened from well over double that (in some cases, probably triple). Even if CMU and some of the other schools pre-screened 50%, people would feel more certain of their child's potential to be admitted (although it would still be extremely competitive).</p>

<p>The other thing that is mentioned on the music board ALL THE TIME, and I really endorse this, is for kids to have an independent appraisal of their talent, not from their personal teacher or school director, but someone who has a better sense of the nationwide pool of talent. Every high school as a diva, but not all those divas are headed for these major MT schools. </p>

<p>A lot of heartache could be avoided if people had a better sense, going in (through pre-screens and independent talent assessments) what their or their child's possibilities are.</p>

<p>Just my two cents! Good luck to all!</p>

662

<p>Allmusic, I think it has been mentioned here over the years but I am glad you brought it up again....the importance of assessment of talent. I think that needs to happen in various ways. There is self assessment in comparison to others you know who have successfully gone onto BFA in MT progams. There is assessment by voice and acting/theater people who have worked with and know others who have been admitted to BFA programs (like you say, not just evaluating you locally but needs to have worked with and know those in the larger talent pool who have been successfully admitted). There are various benchmarks too....one need not have gotten certain roles in casting or won certain awards to be admitted to a BFA in MT program. However, if one does achieve in those ways on a local, regional, or even national level, those are further indicators that they may be competitive. If one has been unable to rise within the local pool of talent, they have to realize they will be competing against those who have risen to the top locally and then there are TONS of those in the national pool. Also, if one attends a summer program that draws from a national group of talented students, they can see how they fare in that grouping, as well as self evaluate in a comparative way and get feedback from those who run such programs. All of this is important, I wholeheartedly agree. That's not even counting a realistic assessment of one's academic profile vis a vis particular colleges and some seem not do bother with that and that is a mistake I see too often.</p>

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<p>I can't imagine how CMU would be able to devote the time required to view and analyze (possibly) 1000 dvds in time to make the decisions as to whom they'd choose to then audition, then notify those students, and only THEN schedule auditions. Would this be after the application was in? I'm not sure if things have changed but when my D was applying, CMU's app was due Dec. 15 and the auditions were scheduled, if I'm remembering correctly, sometime in October for Jan. and Feb. How could they possibly have found the time to pre-screen by dvd for 1000 kids prior to that? It then becomes a question of who does the pre-screening, who makes the determination as to who is going to audition, etc. How are faculty going to be able to devote time to this when they're busy teaching? I just don't see it being practical.</p>

<p>The other issue is how many of those 1000 are true possibilities for admission. I think it's being assumed that more of them are NOT than is probably actually the case. How many would be eliminated? Even if it was 100-200, which I doubt, that means that they still have to formally audition 800 kids. There's a reason that schools don't audition everyone by dvd. It isn't ideal. </p>

<p>If schools put a limit on the numbers auditioning, people would be up in arms, too. I think that it is kind of a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. And again, the bottom line is to be an informed consumer. Get the numbers from each school, and if you feel that the odds are so slim as to not be worth your while, or if you don't want to pay an audition fee, that decision whether or not to audition, is yours to make.</p>

664

<p>Somehow the conservatories do it, and according to one admissions office, there were "buckets and buckets" of pre-screen CDs this year. Perhaps there were 1000, across instruments, which were all pre-screened, and then students were offered auditions. Some of the turn-arounds, from the Dec 1 deadlines, were two weeks, to the first set of auditions.</p>

<p>In music, certain instruments do not have pre-screens, even at the most competitive conservatories or music schools. But they don't audition 1000 kids either, which is why they don't need a pre-screen, in double bass performance, for example. A school, even a really competitive one, is lucky to get a couple of really superb bass auditioners a year.</p>

<p>I think MT pre-screens would be do-able, and to me, preferable than having 1000 auditioners. But perhaps this is why I don't work in MT admissions, and can admire from afar, those who do!</p>

<p>But the talent assessment is imperative. I feel so sorry for people who flew all over the country, and had their kids receive a lot of rejections. It seems like some of the heartache could have been avoided...not all, of course, but perhaps some.</p>

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<p>I agree that the prescreen videos are not practical for MT. I also do not think it is entirely comparable to what is described for instrumental music. If there are 1000 who apply across ALL instruments, the faculty on a certain instrument have to only evaluate those trying for THAT instrument, not all 1000. For MT, for one thing, involves three skills....singing, acting and dance....and the faculty would conceivably have to view 1000 audition tapes, unlike the analogy with music where only the flute faculty evaluate flute submissions. I don't see how the BFA in MT faculty could fit in viewing 1000 audition tapes and then fit in live auditions for a subset of that, which often also involves travel to off campus cities such as at Unifieds, in addition to on campus audition dates. </p>

<p>I don't see this as a problem if people have the appropriate balanced list and don't apply to TONS of schools (some have lists that are very long). The number of trips could be reduced if attending Unified auditions as well. My child had 8 schools on her list and we did campus auditions but also felt it was important to visit every school, just as her sister did when applying to regular colleges. College visits cost money and it is part of the admissions expenses. You can cut costs by applying to less schools and/or attending Unifieds (not sure if music students have the option of Unifieds).</p>

<p>BTW, MOST BFA in MT programs do not have 1000 who audition. That is more common at the top programs. People can find out this data ahead of time and choose which schools to audition at where the odds are better, or where their qualifications more closely align. There are plenty of BFA in MT programs who audition far fewer and/or do not draw from as great of a national talent pool. </p>

<p>This is not so different than applying to Harvard....put in an app and know that only 7% will get in. Them's your chances. Plan accordingly.</p>

<p>(the chances at Harvard do look good compared to BFA in MT though, LOL)</p>

666

<p>(No unifieds for music, although the NY conservatories schedule their auditions the same week, so as to save people time and scheduling trouble for travel).</p>

<p>Just my opinion...seems so sad to me to see kids here with no or so few acceptances. I guess I am in favor of knowing in advance what my chances are (not much of a risker, I guess).</p>

<p>Back to my own board! Sorry for the intrusion!</p>

667

<p>Frankly, nobody should end up with NO acceptances. There should be BA schools on a list and safety schools. You can visit the regular forums on CC and find kids who only apply to Ivies and elite schools and occasionally some end up with no acceptances and had no safety schools (read andison's story) You can get a great education in theater or MT at many BA schools. It is not like BFA or bust.</p>

<p>Also, applicants need to do a good job in assessing chances when building a well balanced and appropriate college list. Many have the wrong list for themselves. Some do not have a balanced list. I see this frequently. Some also enter this process not well informed. You really need to be well informed if planning to enter a highly selective admissions process.</p>

668

<p>I would like to put in a good word for CMU. With the numbers they were dealing with, I think they did an excellent job of giving everyone a fair audition. My D was originally scheduled for an on-campus audition and had to reschedule at the last minute when she came home very sick from a senior retreat. She ended up auditioning at the LA Unifieds. CMU was one of the few schools that sent all their top people from the dance, voice, and acting departments (and an accompaniest) to the audition. Each auditionee was seen by all and the parents and students were given a very thorough presentation and question/answer session.</p>

669

<p>(continued) My D was there for over 4 1/2 hours (including 2 call-backs with the two acting teachers) so I definitely feel they were entitled to their audition fee. </p>

<p>Contrast this with the NYU audition - no dance, they had to bring their own CD for the music, and only saw one auditor for a total of 15-20 minutes. In my opinion, CMU audition was a very good audition experience for a student who wants to do professional MT.</p>

670

<p>SoozieVT- I totally agree with your statement that students "should only be applying to colleges where you are somewhat in the ballpark for admissions in the first place." Perhaps my greatest realization throughout this process is that the biggest challenge most of these kids face is honestly having NO clue where they stand in the larger pool of applicants. When we started the application process in the fall, we were SO incredibly clueless about the odds and the enormous numbers of kids auditioning. No one in our small area has ever really tried to pursue this past the community college level. No one had ever even heard of "Unified Auditions." Not even my D's high school theatre teacher.</p>

<p>And I would have to think that the MAJORITY of students and their parents are equally lost in regards to this when they start this process. Obviously, some students live in larger areas, where their level of talent and skills can be more easily compared to others. Some have been able to go to the big summer camps where they could be evaluated on a larger scale. </p>

<p>However, there are bunches and bunches of students (and their parents) who live in smaller areas with very little competition. When I first found CC last fall, something you said (SoozieVT) struck me so profoundly that it was like someone hit me over the head with a two-by-four. You brought up the point that there are stars out there in every high school in every county in every state ALL OVER this country. Just because you are the star of your high school or community theatre productions, or even think you should be the star, there are hundreds and thousands of kids just like you all over this country vying to be awarded one of those very few MT spots at their dream school. </p>

<p>Once I started running those numbers in my mind, I went into a total panic. At that point we added three more schools to my daughter's original list of four. And looking at that original list now, I just shudder to think that we actually thought it was an adequate list! And even more surprising to me now is that if we had to do it all over again, I would insist that she add even more. Her list of 7 was still not appropriately balanced. Again, we just didn't understand the odds. I honest to goodness think I've got an ulcer from the past two months of worrying that she wouldn't get in to ANY of the schools, as I realized more and more every day that our list wasn't balanced enough. We didn't include any BA programs or non-audition schools. In spite of the fact that it all worked out for her in the end, I would STILL do it differently knowing what I know now.</p>

<p>The biggest challenge for most students is knowing which schools actually ARE worth applying to and auditioning for, based on their personal skill level. If you are applying for an ACADEMIC program, you can certainly compare your stats and grades with the college's list of averages for admitted students. Unfortunately, with MT, there is no realistic way to compare yourself easily. Even turning to the opinions of people around you can be useless sometimes, depending on the true understanding that person has of the competition out there. I don't have any suggestions or solutions to this problem, but instead, am just pointing out some of the challenges we all have in evaluating which options are genuine "safeties, reaches and matches" for a particular student.</p>

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<p>TiffW...I truly do understand. You know, I live in a rural town of 1700 people. My D's high school would have no clue either. Having a daughter who wanted to go into this, we did a lot of research. It really is needed. </p>

<p>I already talked about some degree of self assessment artistically. Even on one count....how do you fare over time in casting in your local area. Like I said, on a national scale, you are competing with standouts from every local area. If you have not been able to rise up in your own school or area, you have to think about how you will compete against standouts from each local area, etc. That is just one thing to examine and not the end all and be all, of course. Same with adjudicated events....which vary in all regions. For instance, in our region, we have All States for Music. You can get in for Chorus. There are also All State Scholarships for voice, instrumental, jazz, etc. I am not saying you MUST win these things to get into a BFA! But if you do fare well in adjudicated events in your own region, it is another benchmark in a larger talent pool. I have clients who have won some awards on a state or regional level and it says something to me, that they have a chance to compete (and it has turned out that way with their admissions results). The students I know who have only been in ensemble in a HS musical are not faring as well as the ones I have who have played lead roles, as a very simplistic way of putting it (there is more to it, of course). My D's voice teacher had students who went onto college programs and so had points of comparison. Actually, my D's voice teacher did not give these kids private lessons until senior year, but rather taught them in small groups (kinda like is done in BFA classes) and so my D was with some other girls from the region (beyond our local area) and the other girls in the group went onto places like CAP21, Emerson, Syracuse, Ithaca, etc. So, she met kids beyond the high school level. She won state awards, and so on and so we had some indicators (though still knew the odds were very very difficult). But if you have NO indicators, the odds are even tougher. </p>

<p>Before, I also was talking about my observations that some do NOT examine their ACADEMIC qualifications as if those do not matter. You have to have the academic qualifications in the ballpark for the schools to which you apply. I do come across students who want NYU, for example, whose odds academically are a FAR FAR reach. They shouldn't even need me to tell them that as all that information is available. </p>

<p>A student needs both self evaluation and evaluation by others on both the academic and artistic side and to gather as much information as possible on the academic odds and artistic odds at various schools out there and build balanced lists. For example, some have no BA schools on their list . Some only apply to top programs but truly are not quite in that ballpark. The list is very important. Even with the right list, the odds of getting into BFA programs are very chancy....even for the highlly qualified kids. But I still believe that nobody should end up with NO college acceptances......perhaps no BFAs but they should be accepted to some BAs where they can continue to pursue theater and MT.</p>

<p>PS, those who read CC, learn a LOT. For instance, nobody in our school or area (including us at the time) had heard of NFAA. I heard of it through CC's MT Forum which I started reading when D (the MT one) was a freshman. She entered it and won an award and it was another indicator that maybe she'd get into a BFA program. CC has been a terrific resource on soooooo many levels. Local people, including the HS, would not have a clue about this process.</p>

672

<p>This may be the wrong place for it, but does anyone out there have a list of BFA/MT schools that accept more than 10% of their applicants? Also are there any recommendations for small liberal arts schools (non Ivies) that have strong theatre programs (I believe Muhlenburg might be one of these). Please post if you have suggestions.</p>

673

<p>Black Suits, could you start a new thread on that? Thanks. </p>

<p>Also, if you search the MT Forum, there are other discussion threads on BA programs...use the search function. As well, consult the Big List of MT colleges.....there is a thread at the top with a link to that list and on that list, there are BA programs, as well as BFA ones. </p>

<p>With BFA schools, you can't just go by admit rate. Most BFA programs that I know of admit 10% or less. But that doesn't give the full picture of selectivity. Some schools that admit say, 5% of applicants, do not draw the same national or high level talent pool as another school that accepts 5% (the percentage is an example). (example.....NYU/Tisch and Montclair State) So, admit rate is not the only measure of selectivity when it comes to BFA in MT programs. </p>

<p>Also, be aware that some BA in MT programs have an audition (ex., American, James Madison, Wagner, SUNY Geneseo) and some don't (ex. Rollins, Indiana, University of NH, Muhlenberg....the latter has an optional audition for scholarships).</p>

674

<p>My D was an NFAA finalist, with LOTS of local and regional awards under her belt, and professional experience to boot. (not on Broadway, mind you, but professional none the less) She attends a PA high school and felt confident enough in her abilities to place herself in the highly competitive arena auditioning for the top programs. Her teachers expressed confidence that she would be a desireable candidate at any of her choices. She received 2 acceptances out of 8. soozievt is SO right, that these kids, no matter how GOOD they are, need to have a balanced list of schools because SO MANY out there are just as good. Additionally, you'll not know at the beginning of this process, whether or not an illness or some other wrench in the works might impact an audition. (or two or three, which was our experience!)
CC should be recommended reading for every family with a child looking forward to college acceptances...ESPECIALLY those that require an audition for an acceptance!</p>

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<p>triplethreatx3 -- Thanks for sharing your D's experiences here. Her story, along with all those others' shared here, is certainly a good example for those getting ready to audition next year. </p>

<p>To paint the full picture here, I should add to my own D's experience as well. She has also done exceptionally well in her high school and community theatre experiences. She has a very established voice teacher who loves to sing her praises. On paper, my D looked like she had a decent chance at some of the more competitive schools. But once we were in the midst of all this, there were those honest-to-goodness moments when I completely questioned whether or not she'd get in to any of the schools she applied to. I guess what I really hope to get across for those students and parents who will be doing this next year, is that there are just no guarantees! </p>

<p>So, future applicants and parents, no matter how well you've done in the past, take it from the folks on CC who've just endured this ride -- there are no freebies in the world of MT auditions! Be prepared, select your list of schools with minimal ego, give yourself plenty of options, and you'll have a good chance of not being completely disappointed in the end. Follow Soozievt's advice about selecting your list of schools, and you should have a really good chance of landing somewhere great!</p>

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<p>What all of the posters above said. :) I truly believe that the most important school on your child's list (or your list, if you are a student reading her) is the "safety school," which must be a TRUE safety that your child or you would be happy attending. This school MUST be a non-auditioned school that is academically a match, or else it is not truly safe. (No school with admissions by audition is safe as one can never, ever hope to predict audition outcomes.)</p>

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<p>Triple....being an NFAA Finalist...wow, your D must be very talented indeed. I realize that doesn't mean she'd get in everywhere but you had some indication that she was competitive for a BFA. </p>

<p>Tiff...I totally relate. I was very nervous at the daunting odds when my daughter was an applicant for MT. I think even if you are an appropriate contender in the ballpark as a BFA candidate, the odds are still VERY difficult because of the low admit rates. This is akin to a top top student who applies to the Ivies....and due to the very low admit rates there, there are no guarantees and to the contrary, the odds are still slim and they WILL turn away highly qualified candidates. Thus, at BFA programs, particularly the very well known or regarded ones, they do turn away qualified candidates and so these schools are a REACH for ANYONE. Juniors, PLEASE know that going into it. We considered every BFA on my D's list a REACH because of the odds, not due to not being qualified. I think if you are not competitive or qualified at a particular school, your odds are even slimmer. We had no idea what my D's outcome would be but we felt somewhat secure that she was an appropriate candidate and would get into at least one program and went in with fairly low expectations for more than that but did feel she was in the running. It turned out we were correct in that and her results turned out better than expected as we try to keep expectations low. As all can see in the results, even those who get into very competitive programs, rarely got into ALL the programs on their list. Rejections are part of this process for everyone. But if your list is appropriate to you as an individual and balanced, you should end up admitted SOMEwhere. </p>

<p>You don't get in with what's on paper.....but what's on paper can paint a picture often of whether someone is competitive because it can show what they have achieved or done and is some inkling as a starting point. It is harder to ascertain the qualifications on paper for someone who has less definitive achievements. Obviously you gotta hear them sing, act and dance. When I first see what's on paper, it is a first inkling of "chances". </p>

<p>I know some highly talented kids in MT and their lists had very very selective schools on them but those lists were not appropriate for some other candidates I know. One thing I sometimes observe on CC is that some inquire as to what schools offer MT but that is not enough of a way to form a college list. Every single person should have a different list here. The list will reflect their academic qualifications, their artistic skills/talents, and their personal college selection criteria. A lot of things go into making an appropriate list that is individualized, as well as balanced. This step is pretty crucial. Even then, and even if you are the local standout, there are risky odds involved. Usually, however, most talented kids get in some place. Another factor, however, may be how well they audition because auditioning itself is a skill and you can be good at singing, acting and dancing but not present well in an audition. On top of ALL of these things....you cannot control that they are building a mixed group and it factors in as to what type you are and how you'd fill a slot in the make up of the class.</p>

<p>Anyone contemplating BFA programs, needs to know that they are reaches in terms of the odds of admission and should be well informed as to the acceptance rates which are readily given out by the programs. Some students tend to fall in love with "must have" schools and should put more energy into finding some safer schools to apply to and not just tack them onto the list as "fall backs" and then come April not want to go to those fall backs. Every school on the list should be one you would be happy to attend, even though it is natural to have favorites and preferences. Also, falling in love with a "dream" school can be a set up for disappointment. I firmly believe that most kids can be happy at any number of schools and not just one or two. Further, at this time of year, most are sitting with several rejections (very common in the BFA admissions process) and need to embrace the schools they DO have as options. In almost every case, this time next year, they will be happily planted at a school that may not have originally been a first, second, or third choice. Many who attend schools lower down on their list, end up happy there and can't imagine being anywhere else. This may be hard to see at the moment in the middle of college admissions angst, but this all passes and there is light for next year. Even for those who hold no acceptances, there are new paths to go down and it can turn out positively. You'll see.</p>

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<p>NMR....we cross posted but you are so right. It is too late for those in the 2008 cycle, but for juniors who are reading.....nobody should be left with NO acceptances in April of senior year. It is essential to have some non-audition schools on the list, one of which must ALSO be an academic safety (NOT ALL BA schools are a safety). The BAs should be carefully researched and visited and ones where you would be happy to attend. It may not be your first choice but pick very carefully as you may be going there come spring.</p>

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<p>I cannot stress enough how important it is to take the above advice. I discovered this site quite by accident in the spring of my d's junior year. We hadn't visited any schools and were very naive about this whole process. I spent hours and hours reading these posts from the very beginning and if it weren't for this advice my d would not have ended up with a few choices. It was difficult coming up with a list that was good for my d. It took a lot of time...doing research, reading these posts, etc. but it was well worth it. Because we didn't get started until the end of her junior year (and didn't do any pre-visits) we had to come up with a list with a lot of different types of schools. Some conservatories, some big state schools, some small private schools and until she actually auditioned at each of these schools, she didn't know which type she would like best but since we did read a lot beforehand we did narrow down which conservatories were the best fit, which state schools seemed to be the best fit, etc...
Just go into this process with your eyes wide open and do the reading, researching and visiting and you should be able to come up with a great list and have a great school to go to!!</p>

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<p>One other thing.....I know some are disappointed to be holding perhaps just one BFA acceptance and some BAs or perhaps no BFAs and got into one or more BAs. However, it is not a contest of how many you can get into. It is truly great if you end up with options. It is like a cherry on top if you get into a favorite. But if you HAVE been accepted somewhere, even though you also are holding onto the inevitable rejections inherent in the BFA admissions process, you have been successful and have some place to go. Every school on one's list should be a place you would consider attending or else it should not be on the list in the first place.</p>

<p>Try to focus now on where you did get in and not where you didn't. Most of you have at least one BA or one BFA acceptance. I realize there are some wonderful kids here who have NO school and that is surely a setback but not all is lost. Unfortuntately, there may not have been BAs on your list or whatever other reasons that contributed to the disappointing outcome. But to those who are holding at least one acceptance, you DO have some place to go. It is almost inevitable that you also will be holding some rejections. Some have more than others but no point in comparing. Try to move forward and plan. You all did your best and things have a way of working themselves out, even if it wasn't your original plan as hoped.</p>