<p>Soozievt</p>
<p>What did you mean by the "talent Pool " comment?</p>
<p>IBEElieveINU, </p>
<p>You asked what I meant by the "talent pool." I am volunteering to give realistic advice here and I know as I do so, that someone is going to walk away offended and I am risking that. I will try to explain. I ALWAYS hesitate to give examples with school names on a public forum, even though I do when assisting individual families. And this is why. But I'll try to explain in generic terms. </p>
<p>All the BFA programs that I know tend to have an admit rate ranging anywhere from 2% to about 10%, give or take. So, comparing the selectivity between BFA in MT programs and just using the admit rate alone is not entirely the full picture. Also, there is not much difference if one school accecpts 5% and another accepts 7% as both are real low, I think we'd all agree. </p>
<p>BUT.....there IS a difference in the artistic ODDS of admissions between the BFA in MT programs in a general sense (and I am not counting the factors of academic selectivity which is also a difference) in this discussion. There are some BFA in MT programs that draw from a national talent pool. There are certain BFA in MT programs that attract the top talented kids. There are some BFA in MT programs that may draw kids from all over but overall tend to be either less reknowned or more known on a regional level. There are some BFA in MT programs where certain kids who are choosing elsewhere are not applying to. The odds of getting into (I won't name schools now even though I think the examples would have been helpful to illustrate) top reknowned X BFA in MT program that draws the top talented kids in the entire country to apply are generally more difficult odds than getting into Y BFA in MT that is very good but either is not drawing as extensively from a national talent pool but a more regional one and/or the top talented kids are not even applying there. For instance, I know a LOT Of MT kids at the very well known top programs often mentioned on CC and these kids are from all over the country. Many of these kids whom I know, did not apply to certain BFA programs and these particular BFA programs, as great as they are, were not on ANY of their college lists. So, these kids were removed from the talent pool vying at these other BFA in MT programs. That sure leaves plenty of other talented kids for certain. But the entire pool applying to certain programs is NOT the same as the ones applying to certain other programs. Even another simplistic difference is that some schools do not attend Unifieds or do not hold auditions at any locations other than on campus. They are likely to not be drawing the same exact pool of applicants as programs that hold auditions in more than one location. There are programs on on CC that I had not ever heard of before I came to CC and neither had my D or her theater friends from other states. That does not mean those programs are not terrific and it doesn't mean the kids in those programs are not talented. But who applies where DOES vary. </p>
<p>This is not an odd concept. Who applies to Harvard is not the same as who applies to Johnson State College. The applicant pools differ. The issue with BFA admissions is that most of the schools have a low admit rate and so may appear to be equally as difficult to get into but that is not necessarily the case. That was my point. Almost all BFA in MT programs have low admit rates. But I think most would agree that it is harder to get into X BFA in MT program (won't name any) than into Y but that is not clear cut of course. We all see time and again kids who get into X and not Y even though Y is perceived as easier to get into. So, this is not black and white but when building a college list, I do have my students not only build a range of schools of various academic selectivity vis a vis their qualifications, but also artistic selectivity even though the artistic selectivity can't be judged by admit rates but more as to the level of overall talent pool that school may attract and some top students may be going elsewhere and so it may make their chances "easier" (but not easy) at some other schools and so they build a mix of both academic odds and artistic odds when compiling a balanced list. Put another way, I have seen some kids ONLY apply to the top programs and this is just overly chancy for anyone. Had they balanced it out with certain other particular BFA programs, they may have had more chances. I hope that explains it even though I didn't name any MT programs in my post. :)</p>
<p>To illustrate, I'll pick a BFA in MT program that I have not read anyone on this forum applying to this year (if I am wrong, forgive me). I'll pick Sam Houston State. My D has friends attending NYU/Tisch, CCM, CMU, UMich, BOCO, Emerson, Ithaca, Syracuse, Penn State, and others that are not coming to my mind at the moment (these are not the only schools that apply to my point but simply where she has friends attending) and none of those kids applied to Sam Houston State. Those kids were removed from the talent pool that auditioned for Sam Houston State. Further, kids in certain regions of the country, likely have not heard of Sam Houston State. We live in Vermont and I had never heard of it until I read CC. Further, I don't believe Sam Houston State attends Unifieds and so you must travel there to audition. I am not up on the admit rate to their program but if it is 10% or lower, looking at the admit rates alone would not give you the total picture. I believe that it is EASIER but NOT EASY to get into Sam Houston State's BFA in MT than the ones I just mentioned and thus building a college list should include schools of varying artistic odds, as well as academic odds (some of the schools I mentioned also have harder academic odds than Sam Houston State). This is not to say that those who attend Sam Houston State are not very talented. I'm simply talking of the odds of admission and that the artistic admit rate doesn't give the total picture when assessing the artistic odds. If anyone attends SHS, I pray you are not offended as I am illustrating a point that is pretty realistic, although not entirely black and white.</p>
<p>All I can say is I wish I had found CC 6 months earlier than I did; our lives would be very different right now, I am guessing. Oh well, onward and upward! ;)</p>
<p>snoggie...life takes twists and turns and helping your child weather them will be something that will really help her in the long run, particularly in this field. Nothing's lost. Go to plan B and help her move forward. What seems bleak at times, often ends up working out in nice ways eventually. This is a tough process and there are many rejections ahead for every kid here, hopefully mixed in with good news from time to time. But disappointments can be tough, no doubt about it. Young adults are quite resilient.</p>
<p>This is SkwidjyMom's daughter (if you couldn't tell by our similar usernames).</p>
<p>I applied to CMU for the BFA in MT this year and was fully aware that they accept a very small number - in our information session on campus, they said they were planning on admitting 12 this year. Though the numbers were daunting, I wanted to apply and audition there because it was a school I really liked. A few weeks after my CMU audition, I found out through the Facebook group (rumors that seemed to have some sort of confirmation) that two girls had already been admitted from the summer program, and one girl had to defer her enrollment to this year. Had I known at the time that I was auditioning to fill one of three spots (as opposed to one of six), I would not have bothered auditioning at all. And while asking questions is a valid point, it did not cross my mind at the information session to ask if any students had already been admitted into the program for the upcoming school year; I knew that you could check your application status online, but I knew CMU as an MT school that waits to release anything about decisions until all of them have been made (typically in late March).</p>
<p>If CMU knew that they were accepting even LESS girls than normally, I think that they should have made note of that at information sessions. I mean 70% of kids that audition for MT are girls so the competition is already insane, let alone at a school that only has room for 3 out of over 1000! Man, I think you'd have better luck actually getting cast in a Broadway show!</p>
<p>Soozie since you mentioned Sam Houston State I must toot the horn for that college. My D is a freshman at Sam in the BFA MT program. Like many, we thought that Sam would be an easy admit for our D who has excelled on the state and local levels as a singer and actress. We felt this to be realistic as we watched where her peers have been accepted and these peers are either equal to or not as successful as she has been. After a great audition at Sam (except for the dancing part which kicked everybody's wazoo) she was given the place of alternate in case one of the SIX others that were accepted dropped out. I believe 300 auditioned last year with her. All chose to accept their spots and remain at Sam. In November Sam had another audition as a few spots were coming available for spring and this time my daughter made it. She is almost finished with her first year there and is in love with the department. So much so that she decided to forego an academic acceptance to MMC (NYC is her dream city). I understand completely what you are saying in your post and I am sure it is easier than the top schools. But even in the talent pool arena of Sam Houston, unfortunately, a BFA MT is still quite selective. I am so glad you thought to talk about Sam as an example; I can't say enough about the faculty and opportunites my daughter is having. The town is the pits. ugh Some of these students who don't have a place to go might consider looking at it. Right now the BFA theatre is non-audition but I've heard that is changing. The MT department is kept at around 50 students total.</p>
<p>Just a quick comment on the talent pool discussion. We heard something really interesting at the Florida State audition. FSU does not go to the unifieds and only auditions on campus, which skews the pool somewhat. In addition, all applicants have to call starting at 9:00 am on a certain date to get an audition slot. Once they get 240 people lined up for audition appointments, they stop taking calls. FSU believes they can get all the talent they need from the first 240 auditioners. So the "talent pool" here is skewed even more by who has the fastest dialing fingers. I speed-dialed for more than 40 minutes on the opening date to get S an audition slot. The process probably gives FSU a totally different talent pool from many other schools.</p>
<p>COSMOMOM:
That is interesting about FSU. I knew you had to audition on campus but not that they only take the first 240 who call. Yikes, you gotta be on top of things there and there is some luck on the dialing fingers and yes, that implies some differences in the applicant pool compared to other schools who operate differently. </p>
<p>Blank Slate, I am grateful that you posted about Sam Houston State. I didn't know your D goes there. But you bring up an important point I was ALSO trying to make and that it is competitive EVERYWHERE....ALL these schools have VERY LOW admit rates and thus, NONE are easy to get into and NONE can be counted on if there is an audition to get in. I want to be very clear that I definitely do not mean that some schools are easy or even safeties when they have an audition!!!!!!!!! My point is that all these schools have low admit rates and so all audition based schools are a reach by that alone. However, the overall odds at some schools with the talent pool DIFFER from other schools. They draw different kids. A talented applicant may wish to balance an "elite" BFA that draws on a national pool of top talaent on their list with some known programs known on a more regional level that also draws talented students. I very much recommend schools such as Sam Houston and others that may not be on the tip of everyone's tongue. In fact, one problem is that often many kids have only heard of certain programs and they should cast a WIDER net of all types of programs that draw from different sorts of talent pools and vary somewhat in artistic selectivity. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, ALL BFA programs are hard to get into. I truly hesistated a great deal to name schools for fear that people would assume I was saying anything "lesser" about these schools but that is not at all what I am saying. These other programs are very worthy programs. I wish more kids looked at these. But without naming specific schools publicly, I can say that many know what I mean when I say to balance a list and I know I have seen some lists where even the most talented kids of all have some of the top programs on their list and some other BFAs that are also very very good but where they may have a better chance of admissions. </p>
<p>I am glad that your D is having such a positive experience at Sam Houston State. It is my belief that a person can make it from anywhere. It is the person who creates their own success and not the name of the school from where they came. Talent exists at all colleges. Some are harder to get into but talent is everywhere.</p>
<p>I wish I would have found this site sooner!!</p>
<p>I hadn't even heard about CCM or UMich until after auditions in February</p>
<p>Boy was I out of the loop..</p>
<p>Cosmo's mom...Regarding FSU, that was the most intense appointment for auditions. But my D had a dance recital the December weekend and a play at school (Dearly Departed) in their January weekend. She opted not to audition for FSU even though we are only 5 hours away. She liked her visit but I was not overly impressed with the guide. Just had a negative tone to it unlike any other tour we took. Great facility though! I am not sure why FSU chooses that route as they have a GREAT music department, hence wonderful Musical Theater. My D is acting only but is quite the dancer. I think they limit their opportunities for a bigger pool with only certain audition dates. After all, these kids perform a lot and a December audition? That to me was the strangest time as finals, Christmas dance recitals and Christmas plays are usually then....oh well, they can set their own rules can't they?</p>
<p>Soozie--yes you and I are on the same page. Our family also believes that a person makes his or her own success and that success can come from any university a talented, dedicated student chooses. You gave an excellent example of this and I so hope those that are on this site commisserating will give other lesser known universities a good look. </p>
<p>My D is just stunned that she could possibly be so happy at Sam. For her, it has been NYC or nothing since 8th grade. She just had to make a small paradigm shift to see the narrowness of that view. And bear with me as I name drop to help others make that paradigm shift: Katie Clark, a 2005 Sam MT graduate, stepped into the lead on Broadway of "Light in the Piazza" before she graduated; several Sam graduates went immediately into grad school at Yale School of Drama, and NYU to name just a couple; a few of my D's friends will take a year off from school beginning in May to tour with shows--one has a lead part in "Hairspray"; and currently the mainstage musical "The Full Monty" is being choreographed by a Broadway theatre veteran who has choreographed many Tony winning shows--he is a Sam alum. </p>
<p>I am sure there are many other lesser known universities throughout the country who can tout the same successes with their performing arts alumni and I hope those who are so disappointed at this moment will find them and be stunned at how happy and successful they can be.</p>
<p>blank slate....great post. </p>
<p>Also, your post reminds me of some students I have run into who feel that MUST go to college in NYC. They ONLY want NYC schools. This view is WAY too narrow. It is more important to find the right school for you than the location. Location is a factor but should not be the MAIN factor. Second, there are a limited number of MT schools in NYC and all may not be the right fit for you, as well as it limits the odds of admissions to a MT program. Further, some kids do not realize that you can go to college anywhere and then land in NYC AFTER graduation. While there are some plusses to being in NYC, these are not paramount to the college education. It is not like you are going to be auditioning for Broadway or something every day while at college. There is no time to audition for that sort of stuff while in college and if you really want that experience, go straight to NYC and bypass college. The next four years should be about the training and the growth. My D loves NYC and there have been some benefits to being there (though she does not audition for work in NYC while in school), it wasn't a "must have" when picking a college. She only applied to one program in NYC. She picked the colleges first and foremost. When given a choice of acceptances, she could weigh various factors, location being one of them. But I do find many kids whose prime college selection factor is "NYC". It has taken a lot of work to help them go beyond that in building their college lists. Your D is seeing first hand what a great experience she is having for four years at college and she'll land in NYC when she graduates which is when it will matter more.</p>
<p>thanks soozie</p>
<p>blank slate, I'm sure your D knows a friend of ours who is also a freshman BFA MT at Sam Houston. He is amazingly talented and a wonderful kid. My D did community theater with him for years and the two of them and another girl were very close. His inititials are MM. My D considered Sam Houston, but got into her first choice, so she did not audition there after all.</p>
<p>In response to the discussion of a "safe school" being a non-audition BA program. What do you do with a child who has studied dance, voice and acting equally and would not consider giving something up. I have never heard of a musical theatre major that is part of a non-audition school. How would I find this information? Academically my D is strong but not Ivy material-I have done exhausting research on this process (having coached students for the past several years) and now that it is my turn as a parent and not a teacher I am petrified. I will say that this year all 4 of our most talented Seniors got in to a good program (Tisch, UArts, Pont Park and Hartt) but last year some of our schools best were forced to settle for a BA theatre.
Any advise on what a "safe school" might look like.</p>
<p>Pohsmom, Muhlenberg College is a good example of a safe school for an MT who is a very strong student and can get in academically. The College offers a major in acting with minors in voice/music and dance and has amazing facilities. It seems to attract some very, very talented and experienced kids, judging by the quality of the performances there. In addition, though admission is not by audition, kids can audition for talent money and often get it. An MT kid could major in acting and double minor (as I understand it) in voice and dance and fashion quite a respectable and challenging double major situation. For more info, go here:
<a href="http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/theatre/%5B/url%5D">http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/theatre/</a></p>
<p>I don't think the alternative to a BFA program is "giving up" singing, acting and dancing. In fact, I know some kids who are highly trained in MT with major MT achievements who plan to stay in the field but who have CHOSEN a BA path. I know kids admitted to top BFA programs who have chosen to attend Yale or Brown or Northwestern, for example, all BA programs and they are definitely not giving up MT and are heavily engaged in it at their colleges.</p>
<p>There are less competitive BA schools where they can continue to study voice, dance, and acting and be involved in theater productions too. Muhlenberg was mentioned (though that would NOT be a safety for ALL students, just some) and that is an excellent option for a student who seeks to go into MT. There are others (ie, Indiana) and I won't list them all now but merely am saying that if you don't go to a BFA school, it surely doesn't mean giving up MT training. Also, there are BA by audition schools which can't be seen as safeties but usually have better odds than the BFAs (ie., American).</p>
<p>PS....please do a search of BA schools for MT on this forum as there have been threads on it in the past and this thread is not really for that. Also, if you consult the "Big List of MT Colleges"which is accessible by a link that is mentioned in a thread pinned to the top of this forum, that lists all schools that offer MT, both BFA and BA.</p>
<p>You've all spoken such words of wisdom that I wish everyone whose child wants to pursue MT knew about this site. I, too, found it by chance. Now that my D has decided to pursue MT as a minor or 2ndary interest, I still read it and get good info. I agree completely with the safety school philosophy that SoozieVt mentioned. It is essential. I hear students say, "I only got into my safety school" like its a terrible thing. My D's (the older one) safety school was an excellent women's college where, had she attended, she would have received an excellent education. I think people have the misconception that a safety school is a level down, or easy, or at least not the caliber you should have....and that isn't true. A safety school needs, as SoozieVt said, to be somewhere that you would be happy attending and get what you want during the 4 years. I would have been happy if she had attended that school...its great. I wish we could dispel this notion of "safety school = not so hot school".</p>