Common Data Set report - Some insight into admissions decisions?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Florida
1

<p>Just out of curiosity, I thought I would look at UF's Institutional Research reports to try to better understand their admissions process. Here is the link to the 2012 First Time First Year Freshmen data (and looking at other reports, UF is pretty consistent every year with the proportional rate of offers of admission to females v. males, and various ethnic groups, so the 2012 data is probably not unlike prior years or even this year.)</p>

<p>The report: <a href="http://www.ir.ufl.edu/OIRApps/commondataset/c_ftic_admission.aspx"&gt;http://www.ir.ufl.edu/OIRApps/commondataset/c_ftic_admission.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>What stands out to me after the reminder that the average GPA of UF's Freshman class is 4.0, is the extremely small number of African American young men who ultimately enroll at UF (that data is included in another report <a href="http://www.ir.ufl.edu/OIRApps/commondataset/b_enrollment_v1.aspx"&gt;http://www.ir.ufl.edu/OIRApps/commondataset/b_enrollment_v1.aspx&lt;/a> )</p>

<p>While the university cannot necessarily admit Florida residents in the same proportion as the general state population, it does seem to me that a lot more recruiting could be done to attract those young men to UF given that African Americans compose about 18% of the general Florida population. There have to be more than 900 or so academically gifted African American young men in this state. I have met many with whom my sons have played sports who were scholar-athletes, but even of those, I have never heard them talk about applying to UF. I don't know what to make of those statistics and will have to leave it to the experts. In general, over the last 15 years, fewer males of all ethnicities have been offered admission, and fewer males (by about 3000 each year) choose to enroll at UF. Another point of curiosity, though the numbers do seem to indicate that female applicants have a distinct advantage.</p>

<p>Anyway, all I know is that I would hate to be the one to have to make those admissions decisions :)</p>

2

<p>@Chesterton</p>

<p>Based on the 2010 census data, the state of Florida is 16.6% Black/African American, 23.2% Hispanic and 57% white (not Hispanic). </p>

<p><a href=“http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html”>http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>UF undergrads are 8% Black or African American, 18% Hispanic, and 58% white.</p>

<p><a href=“College Navigator - University of Florida”>College Navigator - University of Florida;

<p>For being such a selective university, UF does a decent job of being Diverse (which is driven by that holistic admission process we all complain about). UF also has 32% of the undergrads getting Pell grants. This implies that UF is letting in a large number of low SES students.</p>

<p>UF is ranked # 2 in the United States of public universities for number of bachelor’s degrees awarded to
African-American students, and third overall for degrees awarded to Hispanic students.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120217/ARTICLES/120219518”>http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120217/ARTICLES/120219518&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In March, when students start posting about the scholarships they been offered, Black and African Americans will be well represented. </p>

<p>Lets compare UF to UT-Austin. Texas is another large state with a significant Hispanic population. In Texas they put in place the top 10% (I think this year it was 6% or 7%) program, where the top students at every high school got auto admitted to UT-Austin (and the other Texas schools). The theory being they would be able to admit a significant number of URM’s, without using affirmative action. </p>

<p>UT-Austin undergrads are 4% Black, 21% Hispanic and 49% white. While the state is 12%/38%/44.5%
But check the 6 year graduation rates:
UF 75% Black/African American, 85% Hispanic, and 87% white.
UT-Austin 70% Black/AA, 68% Hispanic, and 82% white.</p>

<p>UF’s holistic admission process is letting in URM’s (under-represented minorities) that can succeed. Texas is not. AT UF, Hispanics perform at the same level as whites. At Texas, we have a 14% gap. </p>

<p>By the way, only 27% receive Pell grants at UT, so UF is doing better (by tracking admits and graduation rates) with low SES students, than UT-Austin. </p>

<p>I may have my issues with UF’s holistic admission process, but it does a great job of admitting URMs that are able to succeed at UF. Some of this may be due to the in-state demographics, and K-12 education system (where UF doesn’t get high marks). </p>

<p>BONUS State Comparison: Michigan! :-bd </p>

<p>The University of Michigan was in the news, back in January, when “Being Black at University of Michigan” (BBUM) organizers threaten ‘physical action’, one reason being the low % of Blacks on campus. The state of Michigan is 14.3% black or African American, but the University is only 4%. </p>

<p>Fewer males, across the board, are applying and graduating from College. Books have been written on the subject. That’s a subject for another day. 8-| </p>

3

<p>Sorry to have provoked you. Not my intention. Thanks for tightening up the population figures. Thank goodness I was only off by about 1.4%. </p>

<p>I merely commented honestly about one piece of data that stood out to me as I looked at UF’s stats, but as I made clear, I was not going to go beyond that to draw any conclusions about the numbers. I can speculate all day as to why the numbers are as they are, and some of that speculation would be quite near the truth, but speculation is not worth anyone’s time. The numbers are what they are, and we can draw whatever conclusions. </p>

<p>As you alluded to, much likely has to do with the K-12 system here in Florida, which I learned quite quickly when we moved here was a good two decades behind at least - somewhat in a time warp - and I came to understand why some lawmakers thought that No Child Left Behind was an essential move and insisted on requiring that the school day revolve around teaching to the FCAT. The fact that Florida is still dealing with the effects of segregation, poverty, and too many awful public schools impacts many issues in this state… I live in one of the best school districts in the state, and the disparities between the schools within this district are embarrassing (and really along economic classes, not ethnicities, even though there does still exist the legacy of segregation, and the worst schools are always in the same neighborhoods - of course, not unique to Florida, is it?)</p>

<p>No need to defend UF really. The data is just interesting, thought-provoking, but it, of course, fails to answer the question that many disappointed applicants are really wanting to know: “why not me?”</p>

4

<p>@Chesterton</p>

<p>Lol…sorry if I came across as angry or provoked! ^#(^ </p>

<p>We (in the parents forum) had a “spirited” discussion around the Fisher vs. University of Texas case, back last year, which caused me to dig into it. I had thought, before then, that Texas system, of using the top % of each high school, was far better (or more “fair”) than UF’s holistic method, but once I dug into it, I really found that not to be the case, at least when it came to getting high performing low SES and URMs into UF. </p>

<p>My posting was really a continuation of that thread, and not so much a response to yours, my BAD. :frowning: </p>

<p>Anyway, let me know which college your son finally picks (still thinking LA tech or U-Alabama?)! Looks like my daughter will be going to UF (Thank you, Bright Futures and Florida Pre-paid plans!). </p>

5

<p>No problem. I should have been more thoughtful before I posted. What I might have found curious was just that - and it reflected other things I think about now that I live here in Florida and see certain disparities every day. I did not mean to come across as judging the UF admissions process. I am sure they work very hard to put together freshmen classes that represent all sorts of people and, without a doubt, all of those students who do enroll are the cream of the cream. So it is all good. And it really is wonderful to be able to have a discussion so thanks so much for taking the time to read my post and provide so much food for thought. Helps keep my mom-brain a little more focused :)</p>

<p>Congratulations on your daughter’s acceptance at UF! That is wonderful news. When we took the tour. the best part about that tour were those student guides, who were awesome across the board, so what a great group of students your daughter will get to study with and be around on campus. And there is a Zaxby’s (my son is always thinking about the food!) We fretted here yesterday for one of my son’s friends, and he got in, too, and his family is extremely excited.</p>

<p>And, yes, Bright Futures and those prepaid plans are great blessings. Wish my son could take his Bright Futures money with him but it is nice to know he could still use it if he heads out of state but decides to come back and go to a Florida school. We are headed to visit Ole Miss this upcoming weekend, and once that is done, he will have visited LA Tech and Alabama (both Tuscaloosa and Huntsville) and Ole MIss, and, with much gratitude, will have four schools to choose from, at four price points (same full scholarships, though LA Tech adds in room and board, which is really compelling) and pros and cons for each. I hope we have a decision by the time we get back from Oxford, MS, so that I can get some sleep. Oh, wait, I will start having to send out a lot of money, won’t I? Guess no sleep :)</p>

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<p>The thing you’re assuming is that more than 900 African Americans:
1. have better stats than the rest of the population
2. have UF as their number one school of choice
3. have the money to attend college
To make all these assumptions is just not logical or intelligent. You seem to want a fantasy world where everybody is represented equally even if they don’t deserve to be represented. If an African American has the ability, scores, and desire then they should get in, but if they don’t have these things (and many more) then they shouldn’t be. I think we can agree that acceptance to universities should be based on academic merit not ethnicity. If UF started recruiting African Americans then that would be giving them an unfair advantage over not only Caucasians but also Hispanics, Asians, etc. This is outright discrimination. UF does its best to look good. It will try to maintain its image as best as possible which means getting the highest GPAs and SAT scores it can admit. Ultimately as long as you can bring something that will make the university look good whether your white, black, or yellow. </p>

7

<p>Basing admission strictly on academic merit is also assuming that all the students had the same kind of access to good education, passionate teachers, supportive parents, rigorous classes. Usually this is not the case. A child might be bright and smart, but just because they had access to one-on-one tutor’s or the opportunity to attend a HS or duel enrollment classes to boost their GPA with numerous offerings to take AP classes, etc. does not make that applicant the best applicant and schools should look beyond stats/numbers to increase the numbers of African Americans in their top State schools. </p>

<p>The arguments from the UCLA law school students video posted last Monday here: <a href=“33 - YouTube”>33 - YouTube, I feel, eloquently state what being the one of only a few African Americans is like on a college campus.
I feel that diversity in the top flagship schools is needed and schools need to increase their outreach to get these students to consider their schools and support them to graduation. It is good for the school and society. </p>

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<p>Yes but then we’re talking about disadvantaged youth and not just a specific minority. This is more of a social issue than a university’s. If we want to talk about everyone having the same access to opportunities and resources, then we must include all races including disadvantaged Caucasians. I agree that many disadvantaged children are exceptionally bright, but at some point they must overcome obstacles themselves and not be looking for a social welfare or university to take away their problems. Universities have already taken huge steps toward equalizing people of different backgrounds by judging students based on the classes that were offered at their high schools. Is this system perfect? No of course not because a student with a dozen or so AP courses will always come off better. I personally believe that people should earn what they get. Ultimately it comes down to resources int terms of money and humans. There just simply isn’t enough money to invest in finding every single diamond in the rough. My perspective is that if these kids are passionate and intelligent enough they will go out and take advantage of the opportunities they do have (SAT only costs 50 bucks without a waiver). It comes down to entrepreneurial ability to go out and seize what you want. If in the end your situation prevents you from getting accepted to UF or makes unable to afford UF then a local community college or job would be an equally wonderful opportunity for somebody who comes from a less fortunate situation.</p>

9

<p>@jimmyboy . . . I made no such assumptions. You have made many erroneous assumptions about my post based on your misunderstanding of what I wrote. Nothing in my post indicated any such nonsense.</p>

<p>I merely pointed out a figure that I found to be interesting. I was very clear about the fact that I was not going to make definite conclusions about what those numbers may or may not mean. If you lived here in Florida (perhaps you do) and have my perspective (having grown up far away from the south, and at least 25 years older than you, I would gather), then you would better understand why that figure piqued my interest.</p>

<p>I live in one of the best school districts, and one of the schools that has become the most coveted (one has to win a lottery to get in and have a minimum GPA and FCAT scores), and sends a lot of students to UF and other top schools, also does not reflect much diversity - less than UF. It sits right in the middle of an historically black neighborhood and the student population is 90% caucasian (the other 10% mostly Indian and other ethnicities.) There are many additional barriers to attending that school beyond having the GPA and FCAT. One must be able to get a ride to the school, one’s parents must be able to volunteer 40 hours a year, math teachers put a lot of pressure on students to buy $150 calculators, etc. My kids attended and I had to volunteer 120 hours a year, with most of those hours completed during the school day (when the hours were needed) and I was blessed to be able to have a flexible schedule so I could do it. If one could not volunteer for that many hours, then one could pay for those hours, at $5 an hour. For many families, $5 an hour would be quite a burden. So, the way the school was structured was already a hindrance to students from the other side of town, or even the kids who lived down the street. That is the reality. What to do about this?</p>

<p>Personally, I would prefer to see every high school offer the same kinds of advanced programs that this one taxpayer-funded, exclusive public “private” school (because that is really what it has turned out to be) offers. I would like to see every elementary school and junior high school in my district offer the same quality programs. They don’t, though many schools work hard to do so. Over time, I am hopeful that the education system here in Florida will improve, and that the success in the elementary, junior high, and high schools across the board will end up reflected in the data at UF. Someday, that will happen. I will be glad to see that happen. </p>

<p>I am all for rewarding kids for merit, but I am also a realist, and know that merit plus knowledge and opportunity is what opens doors. As soon as my son entered junior high, the guidance counselor explained everything about how to map out a potential future at UF. Did every kid his age, at every other junior high, get that kind of guidance? Both my husband and I have advanced degrees, so whether the counselor had advised him or not, he had our input and knowledge. Not every kid has parents who have even gone to college. UF may not be in a position to recruit (though they surely do, based on College Board reports, because my son got tons of brochures from the school.) </p>

<p>I am very confident that there are plenty of intellectually gifted African American students in our district who would qualify to attend and would excel the high school I described above. So why don’t they attend? Probably based in many of the same reasons why only 900 or so African American young men end up enrolling at UF. I am very confident that there are more than 900 intellectually gifted African American young men in this state. So why don’t more make it to UF? Sure, many may simply choose not to go to UF, or head out of state (just as many other top students of all ethnicities do), but it is an interesting question to me.</p>

<p>And that is all I have to say about this :)</p>

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<p>I’m going to have to disagree with you. While you did mention at the end of your original post that you weren’t going to draw conclusions from the data, earlier you explicitly concluded that UF should be recruiting African Americans more heavily than they are currently. That was the major point I took issue with. As for your recent post, I could definitely see why the school would require calculators that expensive for a higher level calculus course as they may be necessary at that point. If they were making that kind of demand for second graders I would be very upset just like any other sensible person would. I definitely think we can agree that every public school should have top notch facilities, teachers, and resources, but taxpayers would be appalled if they were asked to pay for this. This is why I see it as unrealistic to cure the social problem of the disadvantaged. I also agree that many students don’t get the guidance they rightfully should, but I believe that is a problem that all races experience equally. I personally didn’t have parents or siblings who attended college and come from a lower middle income suburb yet was able to make it to UF and its honors program. While I am definitely not living in poverty by any stretch of the imagination, I want to stress the fact that Uf does not exclusively recruit kids from posh elite public schools and private schools. I want to emphasize that the reason disadvantaged people don’t end up attending college is for monetary reasons. They simply could not afford it unless if they had at least 60-70 percent paid for them. All in all I feel that a university reaching out and unfairly promoting one individual towards success is the equivalent of discriminating against qualified students who are equally gifted. That is what I think is most dangerous about what you were implying in your original point. </p>