Community College vs. AP Classes

Parents Forum
1

<p>My S is a junior at a rural high school.</p>

<p>Having run through all the AP classes at his school this year (one), he can either dual enroll at a community college or take AP classes at a bigger high school next year. Both of these choices are in a town 20 miles from home.</p>

<p>Can you give me any advice about the merits of community college vs. AP classes? For instance, would it be better to take AP Calculus or Community College Calculus? </p>

<p>On a related matter, do you know students who felt that their AP Calculus did not give them adequate foundation for the next level of Calculus in college? I have read that some colleges are not accepting AP credit for math because students are poorly prepared for the next level of Calculus.</p>

2

<p>Both AP courses and college courses come in good, mediocre, and goddawful. You have to decide what your goals are first.</p>

<p>If your goal is the best possible educational experience, that is going to be much more dependant on individual teacher than on whether the course calls itself AP or CC. Talk to students who have taken the actual courses your son is considering, and see what they thought. AP calc courses tend to be taught by the very best teacher in a high school, and many are excellent. College calc courses tend to be taught by the most junior faculty or grad student TAs and can be awful. At some colleges calc might be a "weeder" course for the math or other departments, and are set up so that only students who basically already know the subject or can teach themselves survive. Generalizations are useless. You have to research specific courses by specific teachers.</p>

<p>If your goal is to "look good" for admissions, it's probably a wash. If the CC is a "no name", there may be an advantage to AP, since colleges are going to know what a 5 means on an AP exam and they may have no idea what an A means from Prairie Dog Junior College.</p>

<p>If your goal is credit, you need to research policies of colleges your son might end up at. Some colleges (Harvard is one) will not give credit for any college courses, even their own, which are taken during high school. But they will give quite a bit of AP credit. Many state colleges will take all the credit from community colleges that routinely feed into them. Other colleges (MIT is one) have a set policy about AP scores they will automatically give credit for, but deal with college courses on a case-by-case basis. These may require the student to submit documentation on college courses taken, proving they are "substantially equivalent" to their own course (such as a syllabus, transcript, table of contents of the textbook, etc.) Or they may require that students take an internal exam after they matriculate.</p>

<p>If you decide that the best educational experience is with a CC course, but you want the best possible odds of credit, your son can still take the corresponding AP exam, if there is one. It will probably require some additional prep, since the CC course is not going to be geared towards the AP exam. But it may just be a matter of spending a few hours with a review book.</p>

3

<p>I recommend he take the AP class simply because high school classes are made to benefit high school age students, and also the AP class teaches the AP curriculum, meaning he will be preparing for the actual AP exam. Of course, if you are not looking in terms of college competitiveness, then I guess community college is better. I'd go with the AP class to get a better AP score but go with the community college if you think AP in general is weak. What is your priority?</p>

4

<p>I agree with texas, it depends on teh HS and jc. In our state, the community colleges are considered a LOT easier than highly competitive high schools (top 100 in the state).</p>

<p>If the AP teacher and/or AP program at the HS is not great, then the class will end up as mostly self-study. Ask the school what their pass rate is on the AP test....with more importance on the % of 5's. Nationally, 44% earn a 5 on the BC exam, so the HS down the road ought do at least as well. It the school results are a lot lower.....</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/calculus_bc/dist.html?calcbc%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/calculus_bc/dist.html?calcbc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

5

<p>I would go with AP - better chance for credit later on.</p>

6

<p>Neither. My S#1 took AP Calc BC, scored a 5, and was put in remedial math after taking his (admittedly very difficult) college's placement exam.
Most CommCollege courses, especially in math & science, are taught by local high school teachers.</p>

<p>Why not find out if your high school math teacher will "mentor" him through an online course like the ones from MIT? My S#2 is doing that now with linear algebra.</p>

7

<p>I agree with Texas. Whether your S takes an AP class or CC class, he can still take the AP test in May. He could then gain credit for the course depending on the score he got.
A major issue will be scheduling. If the high school and community college are 20 miles away, provisions must be made for transportation and the time it takes to get there. At our school, some students take evening classes precisely to avoid scheduling conflicts.
Another possiblity would be distance classes, such as EPGY, which would avoid some of the scheduling and transportation issues.</p>

8

<p>recommend CC over AP's. You get credit for the class regardless of whether or not you do well on the AP exam. (why spend the money on the AP test if you risk getting a 3 and 0 credits) ALL Junior Colleges are no name schools. The only colleges that are familiar with JC's are state schools that take a big number of people from them. But regardless it doesn't matter. for example, Rutgers in new jersey isn't going to care if you got an A in calculus from Bergen Community or Morris Community or a 5 on the AP test. Although i'd venture to say, if you took statistics from people who took AP classes, and got 4s and 5s on the AP tests, and take people at CC who got A's in the respective classes and had them take the AP test, the people with A's in CC would do better than those in high school. </p>

<p>I honestly think that the majority of people on this board way over anaylze things on the application that are moot points. Taking AP classes at another high school or going to CC shows a school that you're motivated and that you can perform at an accelerated level. Why not just go the guarrenteed credit way.</p>

9

<p>It also depends on where he wants/intends to go to college after high school.</p>

<p>My son took 5 APs and 11 community college classes throughout high school. His CC classes transferred over to our flagship state U as full credit courses. Some of his APs (all scores of 5, with one 4 on exams) transferred over as credits, but some just for placement purposes (allowing him to skip certain required classes). All told, he entered college this year 3 units shy of junior status. He plans to take four full years and do three majors (though he could opt for two majors and a masters or one major and early entrance to grad/law school/work force). Or it could allow him to take a year off to work on a political campaign, etc... All in all, the CC classes have given him more flexibility, but only because of the university he chose. This would not have been the case had he gone to the private schools on his list. As for difficulty of coursework, S found his CC classes easier on the whole than his AP classes at a rigourous public magnet high school.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Why not just go the guarrenteed credit way.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unless the CC is part of a state-wide system such as in CA, the only guaranteed credit comes with AP, not CC courses. See Texas' post #2.
My S took NINE classes at Harvard, none of which he got credit for--at Harvard. But he got credit for his AP courses and is eligible for Advanced Standing.
That said, there are also colleges that do not offer Advanced Standing, so how many AP or college courses one took is immaterial.</p>

11

<p>Mine had 66 college credits (from both two and four year colleges), and took three AP exams - though no classes, and got neither credit nor advanced standing for any of them. She did test out of several intro classes, but the tests administered by the college were open to anyone who wished to take them.</p>

12

<p>Outside of the "what'll it get you" issues, if you're concerned with the quality of the educational experience - i.e., which one will educate him better - I'm a believer in the theory that classes are taught to the level of the students - intellectual level, motivational level, etc. In a high school AP class you should see highly motivated, bright high school kids. In a CC class, there's a greater likelihood of a number of less stellar students, and the danger that the class will be taught down to a lower level because of that. This is a generalization of course, but something to include in your consideration of the question.</p>

13

<p>id go with AP, especially if its before senior year. From my friends experience and my own, a schedule with 5 AP's and good scores after junior year looks better than CC courses.</p>

14

<p>We have had a lot of experience with both CC programs and AP programs because our high school was rated in top 20 nationwide by U.S.News, which basically means most kids end up taking a lot of AP. I have spent a lot of time researching the question that you are asking, and I will summarize my research and my opinions in this post.</p>

<p>First, let me note, I HATE AP courses. Admittedly this is a personal bias, and you have to take what I say with that in mind.</p>

<p>Most college counselors will tell you, as will most 'experts' on college admissions, that colleges want to see APs over taking actual college courses. Let me make that point clear. The reason is that colleges know what is involved in AP courses and at least have some form of comparison. This is especially true for the highly selective colleges. In addition, taking AP courses is cheaper than taking college courses. With APs, you only pay for the test, which is a fraction of actual college tuition. Thus, what don't I like about the AP courses?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You must pass the AP exam to get any possible credit regardless of the grade that you get in the course. This makes the AP courses much tougher in some ways.</p></li>
<li><p>More and more colleges are requiring higher scores on the APs to even get any credit. I have seen a number of schools require a "4," which is akin to a "B." Also, some of the more selective schools require a score of "5" to get credit. In addition, some schools are stupidly putting limits on how much AP credit they will award regardless of the scores.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Now you know what I don't like about AP courses.</p>

<p>I much preferred my daughter take actual college courses. Many of the schools that she is applying to will accept actual college courses for transfer credit as long as she receives a "C" or better. As you can see, this is a lot easier than that of AP courses. </p>

<p>In addition, some schools won't award college credit even for actual college courses IF they replace a required high school course. For example, if you don't take high school chemistry but take chemistry in college, you probably won't get credit, as stupid as this may sound.</p>

<p>Let me note in conclusion that each school has their own peculiarities. Some may be better in accepting AP credits and some may be be better at accepting actual CC college courses. You do, however, need to check the school's policies regarding cc vs. AP credits for each school that you are applying to.</p>

<p>I can tell you that for the schools that my daughter is applying to, she is a lot better off taking regular college courses than taking AP courses!</p>

15

<p>Thanks so much for all the great information. I can see benefits, and detriments, to both.</p>

<p>My #1 objective is for my S to be the most prepared for college. So our job is to do more research about the quality of instruction in the respective programs - which we will do.</p>

16

<p>Just a few additional comments:</p>

<p>As Texas137, it is impossible to generalize the subject. If taking additional classes are part of an admission strategy, considerable time should be invested in matching schools and "credits."</p>

<p>Despite the danger of generalizibng, here a few things I've learned. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>AP credits are a better known element and tend to be accepted with fewer questions or restrictions. </p></li>
<li><p>Unless they are part of an established programs with published corresponding scales, families can expect to see CC challenged. When trying to 'transfer" CC credits to a school that is not part of the typical circle of the feeder CC, you can expect to see a drastic limitation on the number of transfer. If the CC credits were counted twice (for CC AND the high school minimum graduation) you can expect ALL courses that satisfied graduation to be null and void. In essence, dual program only work for schools that accept them because of a state program. Outisde that circle, there won't be any double-dipping. </p></li>
<li><p>To add something to Texas' post, CC and AP are NOT viewed the same in admissions. For isntance, while UT-Austin grants full credit to dual credit courses, they do NOT look at them for admission purposes. However, AP classes are one of the holistic review items. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Lastly, I still consider that the use of credits earned during high school should be drastically reduced and their quality highly scrutinized. My contention is that none of the IB, AP, or CC classes should represent a college class substitute. This said, students who attended bona fide 4-year colleges should receive the same treatemnt as transfer students. </p>

<p>I hope that someday I will see an ELITE school such as Harvard or Stanford take the lead and ban ALL advanced credits. This may send a message to the rest of the schools to stop the manic desire of high schools to be more than a ... high school. If not curtailed, soon we might see middle schoolers attenpting to finish the high curriculum via summer or online classes and then attempt to take four years of AP/CC classes while in high school, and finally get THE price: advanced standing in college and being able to utter the magical words of double and triple major. All the while, the majority of high schoolers in our country is unable to write a one page essay that is beyond a college remedial level and forces colleges to dumb down many freshman and sophomore classes. </p>

<p>Complete heresy, if you ask me!</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
Lastly, I still consider that the use of credits earned during high school should be drastically reduced and their quality highly scrutinized. My contention is that none of the IB, AP, or CC classes should represent a college class substitute. This said, students who attended bona fide 4-year colleges should receive the same treatemnt as transfer students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I disagree with this to a point. Many state schools, such as the one I will be attending (UT-Austin), have core requirements for all the students, some of which are a complete joke and easier than high school classes. I visited an Intro class with my friend who is a freshman there and I scored an 80 on the quiz because I read the book in my English class in 11th grade. To say that an AP class cannot substitute for a college class is incorrect - in fact, in some cases I think AP classes are more strenuous.</p>

18

<p>"Mine had 66 college credits (from both two and four year colleges), and took three AP exams - though no classes, and got neither credit nor advanced standing for any of them. She did test out of several intro classes, but the tests administered by the college were open to anyone who wished to take them."</p>

<p>Mini, while this use of credits follows my own views, shouldn't you make clear that it was a personal decision to seek to use the credits and not a policy of Smith College? </p>

<p>Actually, Smith has one of the MOST liberal uses of credits since they grant up to a FULL year (32 credits) of college: </p>

<p>
[quote]
Advanced Placement Program® (AP) Information
AP Credit and Placement Policy
Offers credit for AP Exams:Yes
Offers placement into higher-level courses for AP Exams: Yes
From the college:
In addition to the Smith policy on AP noted above, we generally expect that applicants to Smith will have taken some AP courses (if such courses are available in their secondary school)." </p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1376&profileId=6#%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1376&profileId=6#&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
What is your policy on AP classes, IB classes and college classes prior to coming to Smith? </p>

<p>A maximum of one year (32 credits) earned through any combination of AP, IB and college credit may be used for application toward the Smith degree. Credit may be used only (1) to make up a shortage of credits incurred through failure; (2) with the approval of the administrative board, to make up a shortage of credit incurred as a result of dropping a course for reasons of health; or (3) to undertake an accelerated course program.</p>

<p>Credits are recorded for scores of 4 or 5 on most Advanced Placement examinations. The credits to be recorded for each examination are determined by the individual department.</p>

<p>Smith will award up to a year's worth of credit for students who have taken part in an International Baccalaureate program. The exact amount of credit will be determined once an official copy of results has been sent to the registrar's office. <a href="http://www.smith.edu/admission/firstyear_faq.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/admission/firstyear_faq.php&lt;/a>

[/quote]
</p>

19

<p>Xiggi notes, "If not curtailed, soon we might see middle schoolers attenpting to finish the high curriculum via summer or online classes and then attempt to take four years of AP/CC classes while in high school"</p>

<p>Response: Actually, for our high school, if kids too Spanish in middle school it counts towards high school credit as long as they take an additional year in high school. Thus, my daughter took two years of spanish in middle school but one year in high school and got credit for three years.</p>

<p>I can't speak for Texas schools; however, from the experience that I have had with my daughter applying to colleges,these colleges were all willing to accept the credits and to help fullfil general education requirements. Whether this is a good or bad thing, as Xiggi suggests, I won't comment on. However, every single one of the colleges that my daughter is applying to: RISD, Syracuse, CMU, RIT,University of Cincinnati, et. al. have noted that they will accept the credits towards gen eds and will give credit for grades of "C" or better.</p>

<p>Make your own informed decision by researching all of the school's policies that you might send an application to.</p>

20

<p>Kcirsh, I note your disagreement, but your example actually makes my point. </p>

<p>Why do you believe that a leading university, and by far the best school in Texas, is FORCED to offer introductory classes of such low level that you, a high school student who has not graduated yet, sees the class as a joke?</p>

<p>A place such as UT-Austin should NOT be the place where the students learn about how to turn on their calculator or learn about punctuation and comma splices.</p>