Community Service - how important?

Parents Forum
1

<p>My dh is freaking out that our junior d doesn't have community service on her resume. As you may remember from previous posts, she dances 8 hours/week (with a 1 1/2 hour commute 5 days/week), assistant teaches dance 3 hours/week, and during the winter teaches skiing about 5-6 hours/week. She does not get paid for assisting (we get an extremely small tuition break). She gets paid slightly above minimum wage to teach skiing.</p>

<p>She's looking at LAC such as Vassar, Skidmore, etc. Assuming her grades & test scores are sufficient for these types of schools, will her lack of community service kill her? What can I tell my dh so he calms down and gets off her back? Or is he correct?</p>

2

<p>Well, maybe she can get involved with 1-2 hours/week on the ski slopes teaching adaptive skiing to people with disabilities. I recently heard about a young man who does this. Perhaps she could do this with dance, if not skiing. Also, she could get a mailer out and offer a few weeks of 1 hour dance lessons to young children. I know someone put out a mailer to give free tennis lessons to the community to satisfy this requirement (at his school community service is required). Just a few ideas.</p>

<p>Any possibility of picking up some community service work this summer, if not know? There are projects you do in the summer for a couple of weeks.</p>

<p>I cannot tell you how important it is.</p>

3

<p>Chedva --</p>

<p>We were worried about the same thing for my S (who just got accepted ED at Dartmouth). And for what it's worth -- he claimed little community service, beyond what he's done for NHS requirements, and the time he spends at our synagogue. (And Dartmouth is big on community service once you get admitted; he'll have plenty of opportunities in this area during his time there).</p>

<p>I suspect it depends on the college -- but most seem to be looking for <em>something</em> outside of the classroom that the applicant cares deeply about (which your D certainly has) -- and lots of things can fill that requirement. e.g. Some kids are athletes, others are involved in the performing arts, and others are big into community service. IOW -- if there's something your D can do that's a logical extension of her interest (as northeastmom suggested), that's great, but IMO, most admissions folks will be able to see right through community service that's tacked onto an app at the last minute, just to make things look good. </p>

<p>Also, to put a different spin on your daughter's experience, a lot of teaching seems to verge on community service; often the pay's so low it's virtually a volunteer situation -- IOW, she's already donating her services.</p>

<p>Again, it probably depends on the college -- but I suspect it's more important to achieve leadership positions in her current strong areas of involvement -- rather than adding entirely new activities to her resume. </p>

<p>Just my two cents, however.</p>

4

<p>Oh, in my post, when I said that "I could not tell you how important it is", I did not mean to imply that it is important. I really mean that I have no idea one way or the other.</p>

5

<p>Cedva --</p>

<p>My D was just admitted ED to Wesleyan for Class of 2010. She participates in a few school clubs that show political/social awareness and concern, but essentially she did not really do anything that is usually thought of as "community service." (And no, she was not a recruited athlete, legacy, or URM.) So your DH might find some comfort in that.</p>

6

<p>I am an alumni interviewer for my alma mater. When I look over the resume sheets of students I'm interviewing, I find my eyebrow raising when they list a total of, say, 20 hours of community service. Over 3.5 years (by the time I talk with them), this is not a significant amount of time, and gives me the impression either that they decided, "Oh, I have to do community service to look good to colleges!" or that they met their school's graduation requirement. (Some high schools now require roughly 30 hours of service for graduation.) It is the students who have, say, 200 hours, or even 2000 hours, and received Presidential Service Awards, who are showing a commitment to their service activity as part of who they are.</p>

<p>Unless your D is applying to a school that looks specifically for community involvement, I'd say her commitment to her existing activities, including teaching her subject specialties, is more important than trying to "get something on her resume".</p>

7

<p>I am an alum interviewer for Harvard, and I agree with mootmom.
When it comes to the elite colleges (which tend to be the ones for which ECs, community service, research and other activities are the deciding factors in whether students are accepted), what adcoms care about is evidence that the student has pursued activities in addition to studying.</p>

<p>The adcoms want students who'll add to the campus life, not hole up in the library all of the time. Consequently, the adcoms aren't looking specifically for community service, just a longterm interest in at least one activity beside studying. That could be church activities, community service, clubs, dance, etc.</p>

<p>They also want students who care about more than themselves and making a lot of money, but one doesn't have to have done community service to demonstrate that.</p>

8

<p>Chevda.....I remember your D from previous posts, particularly as she is active in two things my own D's do....dance and skiing. In my opinion, kids who are heavily involved in extracurricular commitments have less time to do community service. I believe that colleges want to see kids who are actively involved outside the classroom in activities to which they are commited over time in a significant capacity, as well as either lead or achieve something in that activity. In this respect, your daughter IS doing this. I often read kids' "Lists" on CC of their "stats" and SO many list X number of hours of community service. Until I came to CC, I had never heard of talking in terms of "hours" like that, but more in terms of what activities one does. Community service is an activity to become involved in. For some reason, many CC kids seem to think how many hours of service is a big factor and I believe it is more the commitment to specific activities on an ongoing basis (which of course involves many hours). But just racking up "hours" feels meaningless to me, particularly when kids are just stringing together a bunch of hours devoted to a day of service here on one thing, another to another thing ,etc. Perhaps their schools require a certain number or hours, I'm not sure. Ours does not. NHS wants to see kids do a service "project" for a semester, that's about it. </p>

<p>So, since my kids are a bit like yours in terms of long term EC activities that use almost every hour of their time outside the classroom, let me assure you that they did not have a lot of community service either and both went on to selective schools (Brown and NYU/Tisch). The Brown daughter.....in terms of high school service.....she did only a couple of things but things she just wanted to do but not to gain community service....She had played socccer for 12 years but in junior year, was not on the team (was again senior year) and due to the unfortunate circumstance, she did not want to not be involved in soccer that fall so she coached a fifth/sixth grade girls' team (and loved it......this entire situation was a college essay in fact) and also volunteered to ref games on Saturdays in fall. Senior year, the way her schedule was, and she had a car, twice a week, she was able to leave the HS midday and go over to her elem school and volunteer to assistant teach in her old 5/6 classroom one day and assistant teach French in a grade 1/2 (loves French), and then return to her school. Those were basically her only service things. But she also did jobs for pay. At our dance studio, she taught a tap dance class for middle school aged kids one semester. She also was a server in a restaurant. This was all with three varsity sports, weekend ski race program, band, jazz band, lessons on two instruments, dance classes, and student government. There are only so many hours in a day (and oh yes, still achieve straight A's). So, as you can see, she had a little bit of service but not a lot. Also, her "service" with kids has turned into summer jobs working with kids in programs too and now in college she also volunteers in an elem school as well. So, she was INTERESTED in these things, not just doing them to get "service points". She is now looking to work in France this summer and one area she'll be looking at is children's programs. </p>

<p>In my opinion, your D could put down teaching dance as service as she is volunteering (even if her parents get a reduction on dance studio tuition). I don't think she has to truly add anything but if there is something she'd enjoy doing, she could. The teaching of adaptive skiing is one such idea (we have that here). If there is anything else related to her interests in your community perhaps when ski season is over.....like teaching a dance class after school at the elem school for kids who can't afford to go to the dance studio, etc. </p>

<p>My other D also was HEAVILY involved in ECs every afternoon, night, and weekend. She barely had any service either. The thing is, however, both of her last two years of high school (that was tenth and eleventh for her as she was an early graduate), she created, produced, directed, musical directed, choreographed a student run musical revue and she did donate the entire proceeds to both successful shows to charities, and so that tied in a bit there. Also, a civics type project she did went way beyond a normal assignment and related to activism but she did create a big event in a venue in our town for her project and raised awareness on these activism issues...the public came and she donated proceeds to Amnesty International. These latter activities were activities themselves but had a bit of "service" tied into them. Once she spent a day entertaining at a nursing home (she is a musical theater performer) but that is not that significant but is an example of using a current interest/activity in a service capacity. </p>

<p>My kids were not concerned about accruing service hours. Their schedules were chockful of ECs and so THAT was their activity. They did a little bit of service that related to their interests but more because they wanted to, not because they had to. I think service that relates to other activities can be a good thing, rather than a misc. service activity.</p>

<p>In my opinion, your D does not HAVE to add anything but it can't hurt if she can find one thing related to her interests and to take it on for a semester or over the summer. Again, I feel her teaching of dance qualifies as she is not directly paid for it. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>Edit...I did not see Mootmom or Northstarmom's posts when I posted my post but we are on the same wavelength. I should add that I am an alum interviewer for Tufts and feel as they do from that side of the table as well.</p>

9

<p>Quite a number of years ago, I was participating in a different college forum. There was an admission rep from an elite college who occassionally participated and I asked him the same question. He said that, essentially, they are looking for kids who have passion and committment to the activities they do. This person said they would not count it against my son that he little community service because he was obviously very involved and committed to his instrument, which was his primary EC. </p>

<p>My youngest is now going through the process. He is heavily involved in theater and music. With those activities and his school work load, there is no time for community service and so he has not worried about it. We won't know if he gets rejected if it is lack of community service, but I really don't think that it will be a big factor.</p>

10

<p>S was accepted ED to Penn and EA to Chicago and has done virtually no community service. There were one or two stray things he put on the application, but no real commitment to helping others. He is a recruited athlete, but at Chicago the coaches don't have much pull at all. I agree with what soozievt said- what is needed is a strong commitment to SOMETHING.</p>

11

<p>It's my impression - and only an impression - that Community Service was something you "needed to have on your resume" and be able to check off for college apps several years ago. But that admissions folks soon recognized a lot of gaming of the system, sudden interest in community service in the junior year of hs, and accumulation of hours just to check the box. So, I think this is where some parental fears that community service is lacking may come from.</p>

<p>I believe it has evolved to just what the others have stated well, above. "Something," with genuine interest and commitment, but not necessarily community service.</p>

12

<p>Sometimes folks forget about things that are done that do constitute community service, but they forget to consider them as line items for an application. For instance, efforts with your church..... playing the piano at the senior home in your community every year during the holidays.... cashier at the local library book sales (which is such an important fund raising thing for them)... serving as a guide or ticket taker at a big local event that goes for several days (we had a big OpSail event here a few years ago.....the entire family was involved the entire time it was here) ... shoveling snow for elderly neighbors for many years, wrapping gifts at a bookstore for a charity you are involved with...... as many of the other posters have described, the schools want to see that in fact your child has been doing things that broaden her horizons.....that their world is not the egocentric child world it once was..... and things that have been done for years without thinking about it are often exactly the ones that schools like to see. </p>

<p>Our NHS rqmts have been very very strict...one has to do them to even get in......once in, the NHS didn't really do anything themselves... we formed a committee (at the principal's request) to enhance the experience...we changed the opportunities to be considered, adding a soph opp and junior......so earlier on kids could learn that community service AND leadership mattered, not just grades.....</p>

<p>if your child has nothing, then a really great conversation for dinner is to discuss who would she like to impact? seniors with water aerobics? politics, then do voter registrations during elections? what would the student really like to learn about and or get to experience up close and personal. It is great to combine service with leadership if the applicant actually goes out and creates a plan and implements it, ie for instance, take dance to seniors, or movement for babies or stroke victims... we have a cancer community center here...all they do is offer programs free of charge to folks diagnosed (wig fittings, healthy cooking etc) and that is a place that might be interested in classes or lessons for healthy movement?? </p>

<p>It has to be something the child wants to do....and regardless of the ultimate impact on the application, it will definitely make a lasting impact on the child. </p>

<p>Also, someone within guidance or a local counselor for hire may have a sense of how important it is at the specific schools Vassar and Skidmore etc. If no one does, then ask it on the specific school forums for the kids that have recently been accepted early....see if community service was important and or a hook for acceptance.</p>

13

<p>What is important for all young people is that they learn to give back. After receiving a great education, rides to sports/activities, great trips, etc. are they still looking for more for themselves or are they ready to do things for others, give of themselves. A few hours of minor community service for a college application is not the same (since they are doing the community service more for thier own benefit rather than for someone else) and I would think Adcoms can determine if that is the case. I would consider spending time teaching others something that has been learned as giving back.</p>

14

<p>Thank you all for your comments. I feel much better now. </p>

<p>I had always considered teaching as a form of community service, and as has been pointed out, she's not in it for the money! She'd earn more working at CVS. But she loves to teach. And she's looking at colleges that do have an elementary ed program.</p>

<p>She tried to organize a dance class at the local family homeless shelter, through the Schools With Wheels program, but that never got off the ground - the director wasn't interested. And given her schedule, she really doesn't have time to create that kind of program elsewhere (nor given my schedule as a working mother, do I have time to get her to such a program, and she doesn't drive yet). Although these are the kind of programs my dh would like to see her try to start. (I agree wholeheartedly that suddenly adopting a completely different type of community service is not a good idea - my d had the idea that it only counted as community service is if it were something that you didn't want to do!)</p>

<p>She did participate in a couple of fund raisers with the school's Improv troupe and Dance Club. And in her freshman and sophomore years (and perhaps this year too), she worked with the Junior Drama program, teaching 3rd-5th graders. She also choreographed the show that the kids did with the high schoolers. And she helped choreograph her school's productions of "42nd Street" and "Seussical." </p>

<p>I'm hoping that will do it for her, but we'll see. (And soozievt, thanks so much for considering my d similar to yours, but from what I've read on these boards, she's not nearly as accomplished!)</p>

<p>We'll be visiting Vassar and Skidmore in February, and other schools in April. And I'll definitely ask what they want to see about community service.</p>

<p>Thanks again, everyone!</p>

15

<p>It is also never too late to give back. </p>

<p>As sbmomof3 says, all young people need to learn to give back; but if they haven't started it during their youth, it does not mean they are irremediably self-absorbed. </p>

<p>As parents, this is one of the things we model, that service to others is an integral part of a life well-lived. It need not be via major organized activities only, but also through the type of acts maineparent lists, through taking on committee work in whatever organizations are parts of our lives, through helping others in the myriad of ways we can. Parents model it beautifully even here on cc - if you've ever watched the way they "adopt" some of the kids who wander over here with real challenges in the college admissions process.</p>

<p>I expect my S to give back in order to be a successful person. But I do not concern myself with how big a part of his high school resume this has been. People come to realize that they want to give back at different times in their lives. Some do it through philanthropy which often comes later once wealth has been amassed. Some take a while also to realize they want to share the non-monetary wealth they have been able to enjoy. Starting early is wonderful, but it is fine to be a late bloomer in this arena as well as others.</p>

16

<p>Wesdad I sent you a PM (private message)</p>

17

<p>To echo many others, my son listed his assistant teaching for dance as his "community service." He was accepted to 8 of 8, one of which was Skidmore. I think of this category broadly.<br>
What does you daughter do that benefits others, independent of benefits to self? My soph. daughter is in a similar position to your's. Much dance, lenghthy commute, little/no time for additional pursuits. We will also consider service to the school community.</p>

18

<p>Chedva-- this is all great advice, and you've probably got your answer by now......but, I'll give you another angle on addressing your question: "will her lack of community service kill her?"</p>

<p>On what's called the "Common Data Set" compiled annually by most colleges, many things are reported about freshman admissions, curriculum, aid, etc in a standardized format. One of the admissions issues addressed on the form details the colleges weight on important factors considered for their admissions decisions.</p>

<p>Links to many, but not all, college Common Data Sets can be found on a permanent thread on the College Search forum:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76444&page=1&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76444&page=1&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>On each, if you have a look, go to section C7, with the header reading:
"C7.Relative importance of each of the following academic and nonacademic factors in your first-time, first-year, degree-seeking (freshman) admission decisions."</p>

<p>Beside academic factors like school record & standardized test scores, other non-academic factors are given an importance, including Volunteer work, ECs, interview, and more. The "importance" is categorized to 4 levels: Very Important, Important, Considered, & Not Considered. School record is usually judged Very Important by all colleges, and most non-academic factors are usually ranked as Important or less.</p>

<p>So, this section of the Common Data Set can give a little insight into how a college values volunteer service (closest category to community service).</p>

<p>The list below contains a group of LACs I've been tracking, which should include some of the schools your D may have some interest. After each importance category, I've also noted a "+" or a "-" if ECs were ranked one category more important or less important, respectively, than the importance of Volunteer Work (2 categories different if ++ or --, no + or - means ECs are the same impotance as Volunteer Work). Note also that I haven't found Common Data Sets for those colleges with "na".</p>

<p>USNews Rank/ College/ Vol Work Importance/ relative EC importance
1 Williams / Considered +
2 Amherst / Important +
3 Swarthmore / Considered +
6 Pomona / na<br>
6 Bowdoin / na<br>
8 Haverford / Important<br>
8 Middlebury / Considered ++
10 Davidson / Very Import -
12 Wesleyan / na<br>
13 Vassar / na<br>
14 W&L / Considered ++
15 Colgate / na<br>
15 Hamilton / Considered +
20 Colby / Considered +
21 Bates / Considered ++
25 Macalester / Considered +
25 Trinity / na<br>
27 Colorado Col / Considered +
27 Bucknell / Important<br>
32 Kenyon / na<br>
34 Richmond / Considered<br>
36 Conn College / na<br>
41 Occidental / na<br>
41 Skidmore / Important<br>
45 Dickinson / Very Import
45 Rhodes / Considered<br>
47 Reed / Considered<br>
51 Denison / na</p>

<p>As I've put these in USNews rank, you'll see that almost all of the higher ranked LACs consider ECs more important than Volunteer Work, not that Volunteer work is "Not Considered", just less important in admissions decisions than ECs. Another observation is that there is no relationship with USNews rank and Volunteer Work importance level.....each college tends to have its own take on how important Volunteer Work is. Meaning your D's lack of community service experience will definitely mean something to some schools but little to others, especially since most weight ECs as more important.</p>

<p>An interesting outlier is Davidson, which considers Volunteer Work Very Important, greater than ECs.</p>

<p>Viewed strictly from this analysis, bottom line is that I don't think your D's lack of Community Service work appears to be much of an admissions risk for many colleges on the list, simply based on her strong ECs and the fact that most colleges weight ECs as more important than Volunteer Work. I'd suggest you look at your D's target school's Common Data Sets to get a better feel for the relative importance of all of the admissions factors.</p>

<p>On Vassar & Skidmore, sorry, no CDS available for Vassar, but Skidmore says Volunteer Work is Important, same as ECs for them. I'd ask the admissions folks directly for their perspective, but as many have mentioned above, having strong ECs should carry the load for this general area of non-academic admissions considerations.</p>

19

<p>As another parent of a dancer, I have to remind everyone that performers "give back" to their community through their art. My daughter has danced with a professional dance company, a youth ballet, and with her high school -- and for every one of those there have always been benefit performances given to low income or disadvantaged populations (usually in the form of a preview performance). My daughter has also visited public schools for performance/lecture type events. The youth ballet was nonprofit and specifically viewed time spent with them as being a volunteer, community-service type activity -- after all, my kid wasn't paid for her time dancing on stage, much less the hours of preparation and rehearsal time. </p>

<p>I wouldn't turn around and call this "community service" hours on a resume -- though it might be a nice thing to mention in an essay about the passion for the art. But the point is that even if dancing for an audience of inner-city children who would never see a ballet performed on stage but for the free performance isn't quite the same as feeding the hungry ... it is something of value. </p>

<p>I don't think the lack of community service will be a problem for a kid whose EC's show a strong passion for anything else. However, I do want to note that just about private scholarship we see is looking for community service -- so my daughter hasn't even bothered to apply for most. It makes sense -- these scholarships are often offered by religious or service organizations -- but it is one area where community service can be very important, outside of college admissions.</p>

<p>I would say that any kid who adds an activity merely or the sake of resume building -- or any parent who is pushing this -- is going down the wrong path. I think the ad coms can see right through that, and probably don't place much weight on it. It might be a good idea for a parent to encourage community service just for the sake of nudging a kid in the right direction -- I'm sure that there are many kids who have formed a passion for volunteering only after first being exposed through parental prodding or a school requirement. So maybe you should compromise with your dh and agree that your daughter should find some time in her life for volunteering -- for her own sake and or the sake of your family's values -- rather than seeing it as a way of bolstering a college app.</p>

20

<p>Calmom, it might be true that some private scholarships require community service but there are some that don't. I don't know what you have in your area but at graduation, my D got two private local scholarships. One she applied for and one she did not. The one she applied for was a scholarship in the name of a local person who is deceased but valued the arts and a scholarship was created in her name. The other one was a scholarship given by the local community theater. Both obviously had to do with the arts. I know that is not the topic of this thread but since you brought it up and your D is in performance related things, I'm wondering if there are any local scholarships in your area for kids like her. </p>

<p>I also agree that a kid in the arts can create and put on performances and/or events either for certain groups of people in the community and/or to raise money for charities which is what my D did. She actually got a lot of satisfaction that these endeavors which she had done out of her own enjoyment of doing them actually ended up raising a substantial amount of money. The first show she created/directed was around the time my dad died of cancer and the cast agreed with her idea to give all their profits to the American Cancer Society and she presented a check of $2000 to them in front of her school and I recall the person from the American Cancer Society was really thrilled at this initiative. The next year she was giving to them again but a week before her show or so, was the Tsunami so she gave half her proceeds to the Cancer Society and half to Tsunami Relief. The other arts event she did was more related to mixing political activism with the arts and so that time she gave the proceeds to Amnesty International. So, one way a performing arts kid can "contribute" is to put on events for their community and also to use proceeds for a cause. These were not really 'extra' activities but ones she wanted to do for their own sake, not for community service reasons but that connected in a natural way.</p>

<p>Susan</p>