<p>Does anyone know how good these programs are? I know they're very limited and small, with the possible exception of Swarth. S got accepted to Haverford, and he loves the feel of a small liberal arts college, but he wants to major in comp sci. He's interested in more of the interdisciplinary comp sci than he is of the comp engineering side.</p>
<p>He also got accepted to CT College, which has the kind of comp sci he likes, but I'm afraid the academics are not as good.</p>
<p>Computer jobs can be found with any major. We have a friend who graduated with an Opera Major, decided to take on Computer Programming, she is still working for UPS IT department after 20 years. She does not earn big money, has little prospects but has a steady job.</p>
<p>The difference between major CS colleges such as CMU and LAC is the on campus recruit from the big names, google, FB, Cisco etc. Those companies pay big $ for the best students. Your S will miss those activities.</p>
<p>(Hi Megan!) ^^^But on the other hand, Haverford has such a fabulous reputation and your S may shine more where there is less competition for Comp Sci internships and jobs. He may latch on to an advisor or a professor that becomes a sort of mentor…your S may be the type to search out those opportunities on his own anyway…</p>
<p>He may feel that the LAC is too small for him as he moves through his soph, junior years, but if he gets a lot of hands on attention, it may be more beneficial!</p>
<p>Does he have a gut feeling about the colleges on his list? Has he physically gone to look at them, talk to professors, sat in on classes, talked to other students?</p>
<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>
<p>
But if someone’s truly interested in the software development field they should take a computer science major and NOT take just any major and assume they can get a decent CS related job and do well. For example, when I hire a software developer the opera major would never last past the first 5 seconds of me reading their resume regardless of having taken a couple of programming courses.</p>
<p>I’m not saying someone with that background couldn’t get some type of programming related job - just that the prospects for job offers and advancement will likely be slight and certainly not anywhere close to as good as for someone with a CS degree.</p>
<p>If someone is interested in software development they should pursue a computer science major (or a variant of it).</p>
<p>I’d have your son sit down with the course selection catalog at all three schools and compare their offerings and also compare it with what is required at a place like Carnegie Mellon or MIT and see which school offers approximately the same curriculum with courses available every year. One advantage (I gather) of Haverford/Swarthmore is that you can take courses at both colleges. </p>
<p>I agree with GladGradDad, that if you are interested in a job in CS (no matter how interdisciplinary) you should major in CS. Carnegie Mellon requires its CS students to have a minor. Most students choose very related fields like Math, Robotics or a science, but there are always a few who choose something more interesting (like Bagpipes). I suspect some of those students may go on to do more varied things than just work at Google or Microsoft.</p>
<p>It’s funny that a couple of you mentioned CMU because that’s his other choice. He will definitely be going back to each and revisiting, but I wanted to get a sense of the strength or weakness of the Tri-Co’s comp sci programs. CMU has humanities, but it’s not nearly as diverse or in depth I don’t think as a LAC. </p>
<p>I do worry about after college as well. As you say, he would not have the same opportunities coming from Haverford or CT College as he would from CMU. He’s not a very outgoing or self-advocating kind of kid, so that also plays a factor.</p>
<p>He doesn’t want to just be in someone’s IT dept. He’s interested in game design, virtual reality, and maybe combining computers with psychology/neuroscience.</p>
<p>Go to the web sites and compare course offerings and curricula for the computer science majors at each school.</p>
<p>Check if each school has a career survey and/or list of companies that come recruiting on its web site (CMU does; don’t know about the others). If you visit, stop in the career center and ask about who comes to recruit computer science majors at each school.</p>
<p>
For a strong CS major it’s required to take a lot of CS/math courses and there’s only so much course time in 4 years which is why you’ll see fewer of the humanities in the typical CS degree course schedule at a school with a strong CS program compared to one with a weak one or to a non-CS major. A CS major at a school with a strong program still takes some humanities (mine even took an opera related course) but not as many of them. </p>
<p>For a person planning to go into software development they’re much better off doing a strong CS program IMO.</p>
<p>I’d look at it a little differently: instead of checking out the course catalog, check and see what courses were actually offered this current school year, both fall and spring semesters. We found that too many LACs have courses on the books that aren’t actually taught very often. Big schools do to, but they still have lots of courses on offer. </p>
<p>A friend who has taught CS classes at both UCLA Engineering and at one of the Claremont colleges found the small class size at the LAC to be a dramatic improvement for the software engineering and operating systems classes he taught. He really enjoyed the interactions with the kids. Both schools attract really bright students, but the difference between a class of 24 and one of 70+ is significant.</p>
<p>I’d also agree that there’s a huge difference between those who’ve had formal CS training, and those who’ve picked things up on the side or done more strictly programming oriented classes. </p>
<p>If he’s interested in gaming and graphics, you might want to investigate the college’s resources to support that.</p>
<p>gladgraddad - what kind of math courses would he have to take? He’s already taken through multivariable calculus, but I’m thinking he’ll need linear algebra or statistics or something.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the suggestions from everyone - they’re very helpful. I’ve already explored the different courses that are offered from the tri-co, which is why I’m nervous about it. Ultimately it’s going to have to be his choice - whether he wants to go liberal arts heavy or cs heavy for the next 4 years. He could do both at CT College, but the other choices are so much better academically. It would feel like a step down.</p>
<p>I think the school where the kid is most comfortable and succeeds the best is the school that gives the “step up.” The kid’s the thing, the school just the frosting.</p>
<p>Now if the lower school were really a paper mill that would be one thing, but CT College is a reputable LAC and success there would be more advantageous than a mediocre outcome to CMU. Now an excellent outcome at CMU would be a different thing.</p>
<p>Many kids have a strong sixth sense about which college is best for them, and in my experience it is usually worth trusting.</p>
<p>My S came out of college unprepared for much with a somewhat lackluster outcome at a school with a great name. He insisted on attending even though I thought with his ADD he might have difficulties there.</p>
<p>I was right, to a point. But he emerged with an entirely new interest that would have been nurtured only there (complicated – I can explain in a PM if anyone is interested) and is now in a great grad program in that field.</p>
<p>Had I said, “Well, it’s great that you got into school X, but it’s too difficult for you,” he may have gotten better grades but not emerged with such a clear career direction.</p>
<p>There are so many factors involved with future success it’s impossible to parse them all.</p>
<p>My D went almost straight to law school and then quit. Her undergraduate degree prepared her perfectly for law school and now she has to regroup. This is an outcome none of us predicted; she had wanted to be a lawyer since she was 4 and did a lot in the field from mock trial to actual work in courtrooms and prisons. She just found that she was a different kind of person from what she initially thought.</p>
<p>So, we just try out best, they try their best, and we all hope for the best.</p>
<p>
This sounds perfect for CMU. SCS requires every student to have a minor because they think you should be applying comp sci to other interests. My CMU kid had some linear algebra after Calc BC, but most of his math courses at CMU were in discrete math. The bottom kid at SCS will still have very good job offers (or at least they did four years ago). They’ll give you the whole list if you attend Accepted Students weekend.</p>
<p>
CMU is an excellent choice, one of the best, for a computer science major. If he attains a CS degree from CMU he’ll likely have excellent prospects ahead of him. </p>
<p>He’ll still be taking humanities courses at a place like CMU or most state schools with highly ranked CS programs. He’ll also quickly discover he’s likely busier and has more work than the strictly humanities majors due to the number of difficult courses he’s required to take. </p>
<p>Here’s some good info on CMU’s CS program. I suggest visiting (note - I’ve never been to CMU and have no connection with it but it has a good rep in the CS field).
[B.S</a>. in Computer Science](<a href=“http://www.csd.cs.cmu.edu/education/bscs/currintro.html]B.S”>http://www.csd.cs.cmu.edu/education/bscs/currintro.html)</p>
<p>On the math - more calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, discrete math, probability/statistics, math for algorithms, etc. Details could change with the particular program.</p>
<p>
Are you sure? I know they are weak in languages so students can go 15 minutes down the street and take some of them at Pitt, but in general, while Humanities isn’t its strength, my impression is that they offer plenty of choices. Just for example, there are over 100 courses listed in the catalog in the English department - though some aren’t offered every year - and some are oriented toward their technical writing major. I don’t think most LACs offer more than they do.</p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon, may not be the right school for your child, but don’t turn it down for the wrong reasons. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>While CMU does have humanities/social sciences, my HS’s GC and several HS classmates/alums who attended/graduated from CMU have complained that the academic level of the humanities/social science courses are much lower than those of CMU’s strengths in STEM or Fine Arts. </p>
<p>They’ve gone so far as to advise their own kids away from CMU if they wanted comparable rigor between their STEM major and humanities/social science courses, minor, or especially if they wanted a double-major. They’d also put a stop to any plans to attend CMU if their kids intend to major in the humanities/social sciences as they feel they’d probably get a better education at the local state universities…and at a much lower cost.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Typical CS major math and math-like courses would include:</p>
<ul>
<li>linear algebra</li>
<li>discrete math (or a similar course from the CS department)</li>
<li>algorithms and complexity (math-like course in the CS department)</li>
<li>theory of computation, languages, and automata (math-like course in the CS department)</li>
<li>optional upper division math courses in cryptography, number theory, abstract algebra, incompleteness and undecidability, and/or numerical analysis</li>
</ul>
<p>Regarding the three named schools, here are the CS course offerings:</p>
<p>[course</a> descriptions](<a href=“http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/courses/index.html]course”>Courses :: Computer Science :: Swarthmore College)
[Course</a> Listings | Bryn Mawr Computer Science](<a href=“http://cs.brynmawr.edu/content/course-listings]Course”>http://cs.brynmawr.edu/content/course-listings)
[Computer</a> Science - 2011-12 Course Catalog : Haverford College](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/catalog/natural_sciences/computer_science.php#Courses]Computer”>http://www.haverford.edu/catalog/natural_sciences/computer_science.php#Courses)</p>
<p>It may also be worth checking cross registration possibilities if there is a desired course not available at the primary school.</p>
<p>For a CS major, upper level courses covering the following topics are desirable to have available:</p>
<ul>
<li>algorithms and complexity</li>
<li>operating systems</li>
<li>software engineering</li>
<li>computer networks</li>
<li>compilers</li>
<li>databases</li>
<li>security and cryptography</li>
<li>other elective topics like graphics, artificial intelligence, user interfaces, etc.</li>
</ul>
<p>A student interested in game development would obviously want to include courses in graphics and artificial intelligence, as well as non-CS courses in areas like art/animation, physics (mechanics – for games where objects are moving or flying around), economics (for “civilization” type games), and psychology.</p>
<p>Haverford students may also take classes at Penn.</p>
<p>I like ucbalumnus’s CS major math suggestions, with a few additions. Combinatorics is absolutely essential, and Graph Theory is very nearly so. Also, those “optional upper level courses” are fairly important; I’d expect a strong CS grad to have most of those. </p>
<p>Also, it goes without saying that a CS major will have the basic engineering math sequence (Calc I,II,III, diff eqs, statistics); hard to avoid that in the first year or two.</p>
<p>CS is very popular at Swarthmore. I’m a social sciences person but if you PM me I can point you toward a compsci major.</p>
<p>Just went to CMU’s admitted student day - OMG on the requirements needed for the cs students!! They don’t call it “boot camp” for no reason! The H&SS seems more liberal artsy than I expected (at least from what the Creative Writing prof explained) - small classes that have close relationships. But I’m sure there are big classes as well in the intro sections. The unique thing about CMU’s humanities is that it is not strictly liberal arts - it’s more about how it relates to other subjects. So although it’s not expansive as something you might find at Haverford/BMC, it’s approach is vastly different. At least, that’s how it was explained.</p>
<p>Next week we’re seeing CT College. That will seem ALOT more laid-back, but of course, you lose the awesome cs program with the easy job placement. They have a wonderful arts & technology program, but I have no idea how it compares to other schools. I just know that S would be able to do the kind of cs he wants. At CMU, it would take years of rigorous work before he could even get to those types of electives.</p>
<p>Haverford is not until the end of the month. I’ll be interested to see whether he wants to go for the strong cs or the strong liberal arts. I will definitely check into all the courses offered and compare. However, it’s still hard to get a sense of how strong the cs dept. is. I’m certain it’s stronger at Swarthmore, and there are more kids majoring in cs there, so there are more courses and more profs. I know that S likes that he might be able to plan his own path at Haverford and be free to explore all the different courses.</p>
<p>So much to think about!</p>