Comp Sci=Foreign Lang dilemma

Hi Everyone! This is my first discussion post and I can use some advice. Some background info: My rising Junior D19 son goes to school in TX. TX passed House Bill 5, which added Computer Science as a foreign language. Which basically means that public universities in TX recognize 2 years of Comp Sci as meeting the 2 year foreign lang requirement for admissions. My son’s public high school offers one of the few TX Comp Sci programs for H.S students where students take 4 yrs of Comp Sci (Honors & AP). My African American, Type 1 Diabetic. son has an 3.9 UW GPA, will take the SAT in the fall, and wants to major in engineering. This summer we visited a number of colleges, particularly those that offer generous merit aid. I have found that private universities do not recognize HB 5/Comp Sci as a foreign lang…although each of them (Rice, Baylor, Southwestern, Abilene Christian) said to go ahead and apply and he would just need to meet the university’s core requirements which may or may not include a foreign lang/culture requirement.

My concern is this: How competitive will his private & OOS college applications be if he has 4 yrs of Honors/AP Comp. Science instead of 2 yrs of a Spoken Language? And will this effect merit aid opportunities?

In hindsight, I should have put him in summer school this summer. However we are focused on SAT prep which he has been studying for every day this summer. I have considered changing his Jr & Sr schedule, however, that would mean either removing him from the computer science program (It is unique & may set him a part) or removing him from orchestra (He has played the bass since elementary & this is a great EC). There is no other room in his schedule due to varsity athletics (football & track) & 4x4 academics. HELP!!!

Does he know any foreign language, or has he taken any foreign language before?

What choice does he prefer if he can only pick three of CS, foreign language, orchestra, and athletics?

Most colleges do not consider CS as a substitute for foreign language that they may require or recommend for frosh applicants.

Note that TX public universities base frosh admissions on class rank, not HS GPA. Note also that automatic admission to a TX public university based on class rank (or class rank + test scores) does not necessarily mean automatic admission to the desired major, particularly for popular engineering or CS majors.

No, he has never taken a spoken language course. If he had to drop a course, he would prefer to drop computer science. Are you recommending that he make room for foreign lang? His highly competitive large high school does not rank until mid Jr year. His rank would most likely fall in the top 20% of his (2,000 student) class. All TX public universities accept Comp Sci for foreign language. It’s the private/OOS universities where the dilemma arises.

We are not interested in UT-Austin or TAMU. From our experience with our oldest, who was accepted into many public TX universities with only a top 50% ranking, he will have a good chance for acceptance in lots of TX public universities. However, we would like his application to be competitive for merit aid which from my research trends toward gpa & test scores. Thank you for mentioning automatic admission into the major, I will research that more.

Would he be able to take a foreign language online through the school? Or maybe he can do a self-study program and take an exam (AP, SAT II, etc) to prove proficiency?

Good question, you got me thinking! There is an online HS program through TX Tech & UT. I will look into these options then talk with his counselor next week. Thank you for the idea!

This is a very interesting question with broad implications for TX students interested in OOS public and private universities. I just looked at the curriculum requirements for my sons university. It specifically states that they do not have a “set of required” courses. However they do list a model curriculum that they feel prepare students for the university. Included is 3 or more years of the same foreign language. Additionally, this university requires each student to take several classes of foreign language of their choice (not CS classes). So I think that by not having what is commonly considered foreign language could be a disadvantage. Other universities (UC ?) may actually have harder requirements. If this is the case, then Tx students should take care in their class selections. Interested to from others on this…

I don’t know about the Texas schools, but we almost got caught in the “how the high school sees the world versus reality” trap. Our high school began offering AP CS and categorized/considered it as a math class. Counselors there assured us it would be a good math class option. Mine had AP BC Calc as a junior, so I thought as a CS/Engineering major they would see taking the AP CS class as a plus, since she was technically ahead in math. On a college visit, the AD set me straight - competitive colleges wanted real math and as an engineering major it was really important. We were banging on some high school registrar doors in summer and got her into multi-variable by switching another course. She still took AP CS, but not as her math class.

It is good you are looking into this now as foreign language requirements can be very important, and could be a disadvantage if you don’t have any. Laurel Springs offers accredited foreign language courses on line and you can work at your own rate if you want to accelerate it - but it is an investment in time regardless.

It seems he is over scheduled with ECs - a lot of kids would rather do a sport, music, anything else - rather than take a foreign language, but it can hinder their competitiveness academically. I get the social aspect of sports and their value (I have a D1 athlete) but if you aren’t playing them in college, it is just another EC. So basically, you are giving up academic time for the sport. He may need to rethink his time and find a way to fit FL in there to keep option of other schools open.

One of your TX publics, PVAMU, has an automatic full ride for 3.5 HS GPA and 26 ACT or SAT equivalent. It does have engineering and CS majors.

Another, UTD, has a competitive full ride scholarship.

I do not believe there are any colleges (except apparently in Texas) that require or recommend a foreign language that would accept computer science as a foreign language. It’s hard enough to find ones that accept ASL!

Re #6

Which colleges wanted to see math beyond calculus BC? Many high schools do not even go that high.

@ucbalumnus - Exactly, which is why we thought AP CS was ok. I think the first to mention it was the engineering AD at USC, but other competitive engineering programs concurred when D asked about it on college visits or emailed them as well. Idea was if multi-variable was an option it should be taken - that calculus is a math where practice is better rather than taking a year off of it. So while obviously not required, if your school offers it, which ours did, that should be the path and can help set you apart as an engineering applicant, at least more than the AP CS course, in our case anyway.

But the bigger issue was that they didn’t recognize CS as a math, so even though she had plenty of math by being ahead a couple years and AP Stats, on paper, it appeared she would have not been taking a math at all in senior year.

Thank you all for the replies! Your responses were very helpfu! More than likely we will drop CS and have my son take a foreign lang instead. The online option works but our district will not count online classes toward gpa. For those interested, here is an interesting article on CS and high school credit. It looks like TX is the only state that counts CS as either a math, science or foreign lang credit. http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/curriculum/2016/09/computer_science_high_school_graduation.html

You could also possibly consider taking a summer foreign language course at a community college. I believe that would at least equal 2 years of h.s. foreign language.

Yes, thank you Ucbalumnus, Prairie View is on our list. We looked at UTD but it does not have a football program. My son may or may not decide to play football in college, but he is an avid sports fan and prefers a well rounded full sports/spirit college experience. Although in my mind, beggars can’t be choosers & he will follow the money.

Cadreamin, I know that for some it woud be no big deal to drop what they consider is an unnecessary EC to make room in his schedule. For my son, who has had to deal with a chronic disease requiring 5 shots a day since elementary school & maintain almost all A’s, it is his EC’s that provide respite and balance. Academics, while important, are not everything to us.

As long as it is an accredited program, it doesn’t matter if the online class counts towards GPA by your district – it woudl still count towards fulfilling the HS foreign language requirements for college admission.

It is good that you are on top of this. The guidance counselors in TX certainly should make students who want to take computer science aware of the foreign language requirements that many private and OOS colleges have.

That is good to know. Plus if I recall correctly from my oldest daughter’s college experience, the colleges will more than likely recalculate the gpa and may include online h.s. coursework? But I wonder how the gpa calculation works if he were to take it at our local cc as @smakl70 suggested.

@4MyKidz I second the CC option!! He should take foreign language at the local CC!! I am a huge comp sci/math nerd. I think it’s SO COOL that your son can take 4 YEARS of comp sci!!! My school only offers a year and half of comp sci. As a student, CC classes are comparable to AP classes. Fast pace, as only one semester per class. But you learn more in less time, so it should count to at least two-three years of foreign language in HS if you take a full year of any language at the CC.

Only areas where I saw computer science/programming languages being allowed as a substitute for foreign languages was a few PhD programs where having a CS/programming background was considered vital/nice to have in that particular subfield.

Other than that, no.

Not to mention some high schools such as my public magnet did mandate taking a minimum level of math, foreign languages, and one CS course on top of everything else regardless of which level one started with in the first two areas.

Even if one started at Calculus BC or 4th year in a foreign language before entering 9th grade, one was still expected to take a minimum of 3 years of math/foreign language(such schools likely offer more advanced courses beyond that and offer DE at nearby 4 year colleges* for courses that aren’t offered at the HS).

Considering such high schools exist, not taking courses in such areas and trying to substitute CS for one of those requirements isn’t likely to be accepted by adcoms from respectable or elite colleges.

  • Most community colleges aren't likely to offer advanced math/foreign language courses as most of their prioritization is in supporting students who didn't reach such advanced stages in those fields before graduating HS.

Note that college foreign language courses typically move at a faster pace than high school foreign language courses, so that the first two semesters of college foreign language may be equivalent to the first two (or even three) years of high school foreign language. But check with the college and high school to be sure.

Most community colleges in California offer college-sophomore-level math (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations), as these are needed by prospective transfer students intending to major in engineering, math, physics, etc… They also commonly offer common foreign languages up to the college fourth semester level for the same reason.

However, California public universities based their math and foreign language requirements for frosh applicants on the level or specific courses completed, rather than the number of years.

Other states may vary, of course.

Seems like that’s the solution unless this CS sequence is very highly valued by colleges (though it sounds like he isn’t that into it anyway).

I think most selective colleges really do expect the foreign language.