DD2 is working on her college search. She is interested in engineering. Possibly chemical engineering but not sure yet.
She has visited and was impressed with both Lehigh and Northeastern.
I am reasonably familiar with Lehigh, but I know less about Northeastern. I looked at various ratings and see that Lehigh is consistently rated as a top university, but Northeastern University is all over the map.
Can someone knowledgeable tell me what some of the key differentiating factors are and why it is that Northeastern is ranked so disparately depending on whose rankings you look at?
If you are looking at the global rankings (QS, AWRU etc,), they are based almost exclusively on overall research output, not undergraduate criteria. Forbes uses the 4 year graduation metric which is a detriment because most students at Northeastern still choose the 5 year option. Forbes also uses “RateMyProfessors” as a metric (?). What other rankings are you looking at?
The Greek scene at Northeastern is minimal while I understand that at Lehigh it is dominant.
Engineering students are required to do coop and the entire university is structured around this coop/experiential learning model.
Northeastern’s location in Boston is quite different that Bethlehem, PA. The campus experience is not 24/7.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the QS ranking. Northeastern is 399 and Lehigh is 601! In the AWRU ranking Northeastern is in the 201-300 range and Lehigh is unranked. Neither school has a medical school so that hurts both.
I looked at US News and I saw that Lehigh and Northeastern were similarly ranked. Then I looked at the College Factual rankings. There, Lehigh is ranked almost the same as in US News, but Northeastern is ranked a lot lower.
Within a reasonable range, I really don’t care much which school is ranked higher, but I thought the shift in Northeastern’s ranking was significant and wanted to understand why that is happening.
I never heard of College Factual rankings before and I had not seem it referred to here on CC. I looked it up and the methodology seemed similar to USNews but they did not indicate the weight of each factor. In looking at Northeastern’s detail it shows “On Time Graduation” as N/A. If this data was omitted it could explain a low ranking when everything was added up. They also show Distance Learners at Northeastern as 17% of students. All distance learners are in the College of Professional Studies, a part time division, or in certain grad programs. Including CPS data could also explain the low percentage of full time faculty as almost all CPS instructors are adjuncts.
I spent a little time on the CF website. They seem to be somewhat bewildered when it comes to meaningful analysis. They may be good at other things though!
As for these two schools your daughter has been nicely impressed by, I’d say it’s fair to regard them as academic peers, with each being slightly stronger by one measure or another.
In terms of engineering, USNWR does assign them each a rank within their category (Lehigh: 41, NEU: 51), but in that segment of the distribution curve, even a separation of ten places does not matter much. It’s probably more important that both schools are reputationally strong enough to appear in the limited listing.
One aspect of note regarding NEU, they have, particularly in recent years, enrolled classes with very high SAT scores.
NEU has worked very aggressively in the past few years to work its way up in the U.S. News rankings, specifically. Some of these measures are valid (reducing class sizes, hiring new faculty, improving infrastructure) and others…less so (the extreme disparity between the quality of honors program housing/class sizes/etc and regular, more so than you would usually find at an honors college, the NUin Program, preventing students from taking certain classes they need because they cap classes at 19 specifically because U.S. News looks at class sizes under 20). Some other rankings sources either use different criteria or haven’t caught up. That’s why you see some disparity. Also, I would say someone doesn’t go to Northeastern to receive exceptional undergraduate teaching…they go to Northeastern to get a job. That’s a perfectly valid prerogative, but one not every student wants and not every rankings source sees as valuable.
“NEU has worked very aggressively in the past few years to work its way up in the U.S. News rankings,”
I am aware of the “gaming”, but at least at a surface level, they seem to be getting traction and rather quickly turning what was at least a partial fiction into more of a reality. Unlike other schools, I am also impressed that they have told the truth about it. Some schools do these things and deny it. There is no denying that the quality of student that they are attracting is impressive.
“Someone doesn’t go to Northeastern to receive exceptional undergraduate teaching…they go to Northeastern to get a job.”
I don’t have a problem with the pre-professional focus. I assume that they must be teaching something valuable because employers seem to keep coming back to hire their graduates. With almost 1/2 of college graduates unemployed or underemployed that is an accomplishment.
Ideally I would like DD2 to have amazing professors, get a great education, enjoy her college experience, enjoy her social experience, and graduate in 4 or 5 years with a good job lined up at a good salary. That is the dream.
It seems like there is a decent chance go make that dream happen at either NEU or Lehigh, and I am trying to understand which seems to do a little better job than the other and be a better fit for her.
qwerty568 is not a student at Northeastern. He is repeating what he has “heard”.
To me the biggest differences are:
Coop, required at Northeastern, optional at Lehigh and only select students may participate.
Location: does your daughter prefer a small city, Greek dominated, 24/7 campus experience or a big, dynamic city where students will be involved in the urban environment.
If you like the preprofessional focus, then NEU absolutely is a great school to have on your list.
@TomSrOfBoston, I am not a student at NEU, but I was accepted this past year, went to the open house for admitted students, enrolled, and went to orientation. I deferred my acceptance to take a gap year after orientation. NEU has been very open about their desire to climb the rankings. At every visit I went to the Dean of the College I was admitted to (Computer and Information Science) and the person running the event talked about NEU’s recent skyrocket. They’re very proud about it. As OP said, they’re just being very upfront about something many colleges do to varying degrees. As long as you and your daughter are fine with it, it can only serve to benefit her in the future.
As @ericatbucknell mentioned, classes will be bigger at NEU and students will have less time with professors. Do you have any thoughts as to whether your daughter prefers a LAC environment or a larger environment? I would say that’s the most important difference between the schools, as opposed to ranking.
“does your daughter prefer a small city, Greek dominated, 24/7 campus experience or a big, dynamic city where students will be involved in the urban environment.”
I am not sure. She definitely likes a defined campus, which is part of what she liked about Northeastern and Lehigh. She did not like how BU’s campus and the city were intermixed.
@ericabucknell Thank you that is something to consider.
I am wondering about things that may be useful information, such as the rate that students who start engineering majors actually complete them, job placement rates, salaries, avg. student (understanding whether there is a lot of grade deflation or deflation), how happy vs. anxious students are, how heavy the homework typical homework load is.
Any insights would be appreciated.
I did not see detailed information about job placement at NEU, although I hear it is excellent. On the website it currently says, “50% of 2014 graduates report receiving job offers from their co-op employer. Average starting salaries are approaching $70,000, many with sign-on bonuses. The college is finalizing statistics from the 2014 graduating class.”
I would not get too caught up in the rankings. The two schools have definite differences. It is more important to pick the school that is the right fit. IMO it would be more valuable to consider things like…is your D interested in a 5 year co-op program? does she prefer one location over the other? does she prefer smaller classes? does she want Greek Life? would she enjoy having sports on campus? etc.
Greek life.
She is interested in exploring greek life. It looks like both schools have some greek life, even if it is bigger at Lehigh. Her sister is in a sorority and both Lehigh and NEU have that sorority.
Would she enjoy having sports on campus?
This is an important question. She is a competitive swimmer and water polo player. Her times are currently put her in the pack of varsity swimmers, albeit closer to the low end, at both schools. However, she is skeptical about the time commitment required for DI athletics. For that reason, she wants to consider Club Level sports. It looks like NEU has both Women’s Club Swim and Women’s Club Water Polo. It looks like Lehigh has neither one. In any case she loves the water and the quality of the pool and access to it will definitely matter to her at both schools.
Does anyone know where I could obtain information regarding NEU or Lehigh completion rates for students who begin an engineering major, or females who start an engineering major?
My understanding is that these rates can range widely at different schools. For example, when she visited Rose-Hulman, they claimed an 80% completion rate for students enrolling in engineering, and said that many schools are below 50%. I don’t know whether that is true, though.
I think the differences are coop in favor of neu and size and personal attention that comes with a small research university like Lehigh. Of course Boston vs Bethlehem
Agree with ClassicRockerDad. Does your daughter find the concept of co-ops exciting? Does she want to plunge into “the real world” as soon as possible – or would she prefer a more traditional college experience? Co-ops really affect - and tend to dominate - students’ experience at NEU.
After visiting bot, she seemed to be able to imagine her college experience either way.
Practical experience is great, but needs to be in addition to really understanding what is happening, not at the cost of it. So, I want to be comfortable that this is in fact the case.
Also, if the process is going to take a 5th year, to gain practical experience, it seems like there should be some payoff in terms of better placement rates, better salaries, or even just more interesting opportunities. Maybe this process results in higher graduation rates for students who begin the program? IDK. Something to suggest that students get rewarded in some way for that extra year of effort.
I like the concept of what NEU is doing, but am still trying to understand the benefits versus a peer like Lehigh and the payoff for the extra year. I think it probably does pay off, I just have not learned how yet.
Just one note on Greek Life. Although it sounds like a great idea on paper, your D should not automatically hone in on her sister’s sorority if they attend different schools. The personality of sororities is not always the same from school to school so she should be sure to find one that is the right fit for her at the college she ultimately attends.
@Much2learn
“I like the concept of what NEU is doing, but am still trying to understand the benefits versus a peer like Lehigh and the payoff for the extra year.”
– This is a very good question. And I will be totally honest with you: in engineering, there probably isn’t a major payoff. The reality is that engineers get jobs whether or not they have extensive internship experience. Particularly women engineers! Your daughter will have great opportunities whether she picks Northeastern or Lehigh.
Where Northeaster does offer a payoff is in slightly less employable majors, because students graduate with solid work experience that gives them the leg up over the competition.
You earn $ instead of paying tuition during the 5th year. You can still pay for 4 years, and weave in co ops so that it takes 4 or 5 years. But you only pay for 8 semesters.
I agree that the co-op program wouldn’t be as big a deal for engineers and may not be worth the extra year. My D is at a school with a lot of engineering majors (Lafayette) and they seem to get very good summer internships and graduate with jobs (or grad school acceptances for those that want to go that route) in 4 years.
The decision to do with a co-op program or not is a personal one. I know some students can thrive with college coo-ps but when we considered a co-op program for my S we all felt that, at least for him, the co-ops would be disruptive. He preferred to go through college in the standard 4 years without having himself and his friends moving in and out of classes on different semesters depending on when their co-ops would be was preferable.