Comparing MCAT and SAT scores...Fill in the blanks :)

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
41

<p>I’ll skip what I wrote about the prof, BDM answered it nicely.</p>

<p>As far as the site, as I suspect you are misinterpreting what it says.</p>

<p>“If you score within the general range for your target school, you have passed a
threshold after which other factors will have a strong influence on your application.
Research studies have demonstrated that there is no correlation between extremely
high MCAT scores and being a good doctor. Aim to do well, but not to be perfect.”</p>

<p>Note what it says. It says other things will have a strong influence on your application. No one here has denied this, stats are not enough and as I said before higher scores still need a strong application otherwise. I would point out that this is not different from the SAT. Once you have reached a certain point other things also become important, where as I assume both undergrad and medical admissions screen for unsatisfactory scores (I know that many medical schools do). It does not, however, say that a higher than threshold score can not increase your chances. As far as high MCAT scores not correlating to being a good doctor, the top schools aren’t just looking for clinicians. They are looking for academics as well, and trust me there are a couple mind blowing MD/PhD kids in my class that I suspect were a tad higher than average for my school’s MCAT average.</p>

42

<p>I can’t say for sure, but they mistyped what the original author wrote in his letter - I believe the original author wrote “stronger influence,” not strong influence. This makes a lot of sense to me because once you meet whatever school’s average or 75th percentile in MCAT acceptees, everything else begins to weigh much more, however, I’m keeping my tongue knotted until I can get you guys the website.</p>

<p>On another note, I was on google looking for that letter and ran upon this:
<a href=“http://www.athenainstitute.com/sciencelinks/SFAmanual.pdf[/url]”>http://www.athenainstitute.com/sciencelinks/SFAmanual.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

Another person on the threshold analysis. This is copyrighted 2006, so it’s fairly recent. That’s 2/2 for people who directly call out importance of MCAT scores and relate it to bearing somewhat of a threshold factor. I know, 2/2 doesn’t make it correct, however it’s noteworthy to consider that of 2 people who (seemingly) did their research on the matter and proceeded to directly call it out, have analyzed what they have found out and concluded in the same manner.</p>

43

<p>2/2 from the endless highway of the internet with you directly searching for the term threshold I would point out. Once again, however, you are misinterpreting. It says will be considered competitive. No one here has denied that you need a certain MCAT score to be competitive. There is a threshold for most medical schools where you now are competitive enough in that area for other considerations, but that does not mean that the MCAT is a threshold exam in the sense that you are using it (meaning that all scores higher are equivalent relative to what schools are willing to consider). Schools vary obviously in what they are prepared to accept, and once again this does not mean that they don’t value a higher score compared to the minimal score that they are willing to consider competitive. </p>

<p>I am also less compelled by this website when it says that it takes 60 days (I could have sworn that I sweat through only 30) to get your MCAT back. Perhaps it used to be that way? Also, I refuse to accept that schools accept a 33 (which this page indicates is excellent) as the equivalent of a 42. At many schools a 33 is above average for sure, and perhaps they are pragmatic in the sense that they know that it will be hard for them to get many students with 42s, but I do not think you will find a school that will say that they value them the same. In fact, when I read the complete quote that you posted it says that 30 is the threshold for most schools. 30, or even 32 when compensating for increased score averages, is a ridiculous value to call the threshold in the sense that you are considering it. Threshold for being competitive at most schools with a strong application that shines in other ways, sure, threshold for being irrelevant above that value, ridiculous.</p>

44

<p>Again, I’m with MCD on this one. EH, you’re clearly misinterpreting the sites you’re reading, and on top of that there’s only two people who bluntly don’t seem particularly knowledgeable even if you were reading them correctly.</p>

<p>The MCAT is not a pure threshold test, even if two people on the Internet happen to use the word “threshold” to describe it. It’s just not the case that an extra point or two on the MCAT won’t matter. It always matters, ceteris paribus.</p>

45

<p>I knew someone would try to call this out. However, no, my exact search was “stanford premed tips filetype: pdf” (without the space between : p, it makes a face -.-) and it was the 4th result.</p>

<p>My emphasis is not that a higher score than what is considered excellent by a school compared to that excellent score are equivalent. My emphasis is that a higher score than what is considered excellent bears significantly less weight as it surpasses this “excellent” level - that is, its weight begins to significantly diminish beyond this point.</p>

<p>As for MCD’s second paragraph of points, my focus is more on the analysis than the numbers designated for “excellent,” “good,” “average,” etc. Her analysis is that once placing beyond a said medical school’s desired MCAT score, everything else on your application begins to weigh much more. You’ve met their “requirements” (aka what they’re looking for) in terms of MCAT, and now they want to see what else you have to offer. Given two applicants, one with a 39 and another with a 42, I’m sure there is much more emphasis placed on the 39’s incredibly intriguing EC’s than on 42’s additional 3 points. On the other hand, given two applicants, one with a 34 and one with a 38, I would think there is much more emphasis placed on 38’s additional 4 points than 34’s EC’s.</p>

46

<p>

</p>

<p>I have always been led to believe that what you state is true. After a “certain” number, the adcoms just “check” -Exceeds academic expectations- and begin to give more weigh to the rest of the application. </p>

<p>41 0.1 99.7─99.8</p>

<p>38 0.7 98.5─99.1</p>

<p>Is a student who scores a 41 significantly brighter than one who scores a 38 ? Come on…</p>

47

<p>^He was significantly luckier while taking test, but he was significantly brighter than one who got 28.</p>

48

<p>

Whether or not he is brighter is, for now, indeterminable (unless there’s a research case I’m not aware of). On the other hand, we can answer the question “Is a student who scores a 41 representative/predictive of a significantly better physician than one who scores a 38?” and the answer is no. There has been research on this, and medical schools themselves are aware of the research & findings - there’s comes a point where a higher score does not translate to a better physician. This is another reason why the MCAT is not as linear as the SAT’s.</p>

<p>The only counterargument I can see for this specific point is that not enough people get high 40’s and become physicians and decide to take part in a study case for us to actually perform a decent research on this. I can’t assuage this proposal, but I trust that scientists and researchers know what they’re doing for the most part (I also trust that they know to account for this possible margin of error in their analysis, so they thought about it).</p>

49

<p>What do you mean by high 40’s? Nobody had 43 - 45 in 2008, 75 people had 42 and 75 41. There are nobody with high 40’s, they do not exist.</p>

<p>45 0.0 99.9─99.9
44 0.0 99.9─99.9
43 0.0 99.9─99.9
42 0.1 99.9─99.9
41 0.1 99.7─99.8</p>

50

<p>Well that was the point; “not enough 40’s exist for a research to be carried out that could accurately conclude such thing” would be the counterargument.</p>

51

<p>I agree the difference between a 41 and a 38 is not so much intelligence as it is a bit of luck and maybe preparation. I also agree that someone with a 38 is not destined to be a worse clinician than someone with a 41. However, the assumption is that medical admissions is purely on the basis of who the adcom thinks is going to be the best clinician. This is not the case. In fact, I’m kind of getting tired saying it so please before I get cranky about it realize this. It isn’t about being a guaranteed better student with 10 more points on the high end of the SAT and it is not about being a better clinician with an extra 2 points on the MCAT on the high end. It doesn’t matter if there have been some crappy, poorly designed studies that are not nearly as well known as they would like to claim to be about high MCAT scores and clinical ability (which I’m not entirely sure is able to be measured in an objective manner), because accepting students with higher MCAT scores that have no real percentile different isn’t about thinking that they are inherently better suited to be clinicians. A person could take the MCAT twice in separate realities and get a 38 and a 41. Same person, same application, but the 41 is more desirable than a 38 hands down. Why? Because it gives the admissions committee 3 more points to their average to play with on the grand scale of things. That means maybe they can take the kid with brilliant research experience but only a 31 without having to worry about altering their desired average. Or maybe they want to make a push up the rankings with a higher MCAT, with a few more 41s instead of 38s they might be able to do that (case and point WashU). And also, to repeat one last time and then I start throwing scalpels, it isn’t about just getting the best clinicians. If someone told me that a kid with a 36 and a 42 are not over their lifetimes statistically likely to be different clinicians, I might be inclined to believe it to an extent. However, there is more to medicine than just clinical medicine. There is teaching, research, business, administration, advocacy, etc. I am quite confident that there has not been a study demonstrating that all of these things do not vary between a 36 and a 42, especially research. </p>

<p>Now to the last page:</p>

<p>My emphasis is that a higher score than what is considered excellent bears significantly less weight as it surpasses this “excellent” level - that is, its weight begins to significantly diminish beyond this point.</p>

<p>Well see now you aren’t describing a threshold, you are describing diminishing returns. The very extreme, which is not the threshold for being competitive in that area, of anything becomes a matter of diminishing returns. 50 volunteer hours versus 1000 is valued differently. 1000 vs 2000 vs 3000… the increasing value clearly will start to be diminished, especially if these increases are at the expense of other areas. Same for research, 1 publication versus 10 is a difference. 10 versus 12 not so much. The effort put in to get additional materials does not necessarily give you the advantage that diverting that time to boosting your volunteering from 50 to 400 hours or whatever. Diminishing returns is not a threshold because value is still obtained from increases and because being below that threshold does not disqualify you from being competitive in that area or in your application as a whole.</p>

<p>“As for MCD’s second paragraph of points, my focus is more on the analysis than the numbers designated for “excellent,” “good,” “average,” etc. Her analysis is that once placing beyond a said medical school’s desired MCAT score, everything else on your application begins to weigh much more. You’ve met their “requirements” (aka what they’re looking for) in terms of MCAT, and now they want to see what else you have to offer. Given two applicants, one with a 39 and another with a 42, I’m sure there is much more emphasis placed on the 39’s incredibly intriguing EC’s than on 42’s additional 3 points. On the other hand, given two applicants, one with a 34 and one with a 38, I would think there is much more emphasis placed on 38’s additional 4 points than 34’s EC’s.”</p>

<p>No one denies the need to be adequate in many areas, but every application has its strong points and you should not underestimate the MCAT as a potential strong point. a 4.0 and 45 with no ECS isn’t going to get you into Harvard, where as a 3.8 and a 38 and good ECS might. Well roundedness is a necessity, but you are mistaken if you don’t think that Harvard would prefer a 4.0 and a 45 and good ECs. There is still value in higher stats and you can obtain better admissions and better financial aid with them in conjunction with a well rounded application. You are also mistaken that a 34 with good ECs couldn’t beat out a 38. It is the full package, but as I said better is always better and it is valuable. I really think that this discussion has reached a point where it is just getting repetitive. I suggest you forget all about the MCAT and worry about being in college. I didn’t even know how the MCAT was scored until I was a junior in college and while you clearly do, I don’t think you will truly understand the value of a given score until you take the MCAT or go through an admissions cycle. Debate with me more then if you feel the need.</p>

52

<p>1.) Is a 41 smarter than a 38? Nobody knows. If you had to bet that one was smarter than the other, which would you choose?</p>

<p>2.) The absurd rarity of 41, 42, and (!) 43 scores makes them very valuable.</p>

<p>3.) Plus there is the psychological “spike” of seeing a student jump from 39 to 40. (Just as stores price things at $0.99 because $1.00 seems like a much higher price.)</p>

<p>4.) Your argument is right in principle, but points #2 and #3 outweigh them. So it is true at schools where, for example, the median MCAT score is a 28. The six points to 34 mean a lot, but beyond that really the school is probably going to want you whether you got a 39 or a 40.*</p>

<p>*Wanting you does not mean they’ll admit you, since medical schools work hard to protect their yield rates.</p>

<p>But at a school where the median MCAT is, say, a 33… the six points to 39 still matter a lot, but then you start getting into a range where the upper scores start to get into the rare-commodity phenomenon.</p>

53

<p>Haven’t really gone through much of this thread, but I always thought that a combination of SAT and SAT II scores in the sciences would probably be best as the MCAT does have a huge focus on knowing the content. </p>

<p>When you’re in the high 30s to low 40s, for most people it comes down to luck/getting the right test, and having your A game for that test. I’m sure there are some people who can consistently 40+ but I’d assume the majority of people in that area are just as likely to get a 38 on a given test as a 42. When you’re talking about 2-3 questions dropping you from one score to the other, it’s tough to make definitive conclusions.</p>

54

<p>I don’t see this as getting repetitive, though I understand why you might say so. From what I see, every time we go back and forth, more and more detail has been added for our analysis - isn’t this the whole process of a productive debate? But here’s the letter: <a href=“http://www.questscholars.org/oldstuff/activities/professional/pre-med_letter/premed-letter-2001-2-pdf.pdf[/url]”>http://www.questscholars.org/oldstuff/activities/professional/pre-med_letter/premed-letter-2001-2-pdf.pdf&lt;/a&gt; It’s myth #20 on page 7.</p>

<p>As for how we’re using the word “threshold,” I don’t understand how you really think I meant it as a literal, bold cut-off line where anything above it doesn’t matter. Nothing is ever concrete, even a 2.4 GPA or a <20 MCAT can get into medical school.</p>

55

<p>

</a>
Not sure if I agree with the last part:
IF YOU PURSUE RESEARCH, PURSUE RESEARCH WHICH INTERESTS YOU. Try to get it published if you can. Simple participation in research is like joining a club in high school.</p>

56

<p>Yeah well I consider a 2.4 and a 20 pretty concrete unless you happen to be in a BS/MD program. I read the myth and to your credit it does say what you claimed. Ultimately, the writer does not provide any evidence for his claim that the SAT is more linear and the MCAT is more threshold, but other than that I would also point out that this was written in 2002. This guy graduated from Stanford in 1989 and so took the SAT in the 80s and at the earliest and the MCAT a few years later. I would be wary of taking his opinion over more current ones, seeing as both exams have changed and so has the admissions playing field. If you are sitting on the average score for a school, especially at schools where the average score isn’t at or above the 95th percentile, there are a significant number of other applicants doing so and so I am certainly willing to believe that your admission at that point is more going to depend on your interviews ECs, etc. As we all agree on stats are not enough. Nonetheless, higher stats are always better and even if once you hit average it only can increase your competitiveness by 49% or less that can be more than enough difference between an acceptance and a lack of one at a given school considering acceptance rates can be in the single digits. As far as me thinking you meant it literally as a cut-off line, well I think you are trying to dodge now and I suggest you reread some of your posts but if that’s the case at least I’m glad that you have moved more towards the center of the debate.</p>

57

<p>sunfish, you should call it out when you’re more sure about which side you’re on. It makes sense to me, though. He also says “If you like research, pursue it with passion. If you don’t,
there are many other extracurricular activities which are equally as strong. You don’t need to do research.” In another area, he also says if you want to get into the nation’s best medical schools that you should do some type of research.</p>

<hr>

<p>In a BS/MD program, it still would not be concrete because you (for all the programs I’ve seen) have to maintain a certain GPA which I’m sure the school would set to be far above 2.4. To go further on this, I was just throwing numbers out there; how about a 1.99 GPA with a 17 MCAT score? It has been done. As for the cut-off line, I still don’t see it reasonable to think that I meant it as a strict ceiling, but I suppose the way I worded things could cause on-lookers to infer both sides.</p>

<p>Anyway, I don’t see it reasonable to point out that this was made in 2002, and then all of the rest of the assumptions only because first off, date issue wasn’t an argument for the previous link with the female (2006) (the other Stanford writing I happened to find), and second off, his knowledge is compiled throughout his years - he emphasizes that he runs into all of the top medical school students (Stanford, Harvard, JHU, etc.) so his analyses aren’t only drawn from only his own, old, “historical” experience - though his argument related to what we’re discussing may be, we’ll never know.</p>

58

<p>We have now descended into that most boring of arguments. Semantics. ;)</p>

<p>EH, good for you. The “letter” existed in similar form to what you stated.
Random thoughts- </p>

<h1>1- good memory ;)</h1>

<h1>2- but I don’t think the author meant the letter as a well-researched treatise (or to be “precise” or dissected by us ;)). It was more of an opinion piece IMO. And to be helpful to his intended highly-stressed audience.</h1>

59

<p>It having been done once or twice by people with extremely non-normal situations does not make it the equivalent of the many, many people who have benefited from having a higher than average MCAT score. I personally don’t know anyone with a 1.99 GPA that has gotten into medical school unless they were years out perhaps and had done something in between that made up for it but did not replace the old GPA. This doesn’t help the 31,999 other applicants that are not, could not, or did not do this. Low MCAT scores, as I mentioned, tend to be in BS/MD programs with no MCAT requirements. Some students take it just for giggles and then that score gets reported.</p>

60

<p>Giggles that cost $250 and 5 hours of one’s life? People have very strange taste for entertainment. I would not advise to take it for giggles.
But some bs/md programs do reguire MCAT, and usually it is lower (do not count WSLU, I do not know why even be in program that reguires 3.8 and 36). Some BS/MD require only 24, some 27. Also there are couple of regular route Med. Schools with average of accepted of MCAT=24 (meanning that there are lower scores as well as higher scores).</p>