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<p>Strictly from a GPA standpoint, no difference; however, when it comes to LOR time, “the best student in my recent memory” sounds a lot more impressive than “one of my top 10 students this year”. This of course assumes the teacher doesn’t realize what Johnny Inc. has done. In some cases, the exact ranking in the class may also have a material impact on the teacher’s recommendation for next year’s honor/AP class placement.</p>
<p>What I got out of these posts is something which resonates with what I thought I was seeing: that to get into a “top” school these days, you need more of a team approach. You need coaching, tutoring, good advice from someone whose been thru the process and got into the school your kids wants to attend, super recs from people who know how to write them, etc.</p>
<p>For kids who are “just” super smart and work hard and do community ECs, they can get into a “good” school, but probably not the top tier.</p>
<p>PCP could write a book on starting threads that get world-record numbers of replies.</p>
<p>lake42ks–I just added the comment about LD students, who may truly need tutoring, because quite a few pages back, the discussion was apparently being misinterpreted by some as opposition to tutoring for LD students. No one intended that, I think.</p>
<p>Glad to provide you with a laugh, though :)</p>
<p>Must admit, my nephew had a tutor in middle school (for a private school). In this case, the tutor seemed to substitute for the over-the-top parental involvement that was expected by the school. For example, when my nephew had to give a talk while dressed as a figure from the American Revolutionary era, the tutor hand-sewed the costume. In some families, this job might have fallen to Mom. There’s no real likelihood that an 11-year-old boy would sew a full costume himself–or if there is, I am sure that someone on this thread will let me know 
Seriously, what was the teacher thinking?</p>
<p>(We are in a different locale, where the private schools are not superior to the public schools, and QMP and friends went to public school.)</p>
<p>bovertine, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I think that honor belongs to OPs of those college ranking threads ;).</p>
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<p>This sounds like the future of college! If the top schools in the land put all their courses on online, capable HS students can master whatever major they choose. Why don’t we reform our education system? K-12 can do the same thing. Welcome to the future of education!</p>
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<p>That was certainly rude, if not “inane.” :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>^ = a non sequitor. It doesn’t logically follow. The college applications generally don’t request documentation of private tutoring, but when, as PCP said, they request information about all community college courses completed (ie., there is a transcript at that comm. college), then one is in fact lying by omission.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: I think you and I are in the same boat and I am happy to be in it! I grew up in the prep school boat and have Yale and UVa graduate brothers. (Different era before tutors, however.) But I ended up at our state flagship because my dad had a heart attack and lost his job my senior year in HS. I loved my college experience and have not regretted it once.</p>
<p>Now my kids are in a fair-to-good public school system where nearly everyone goes the directional state schools. And our biggest concern about class rank is the opposite problem of many in this thread. The current valedictorian takes no AP or IB classes but because Honors classes are weighted the same as AP and IB, she will be #1. In the scheme of things, does it matter if my son is #1 or #3 out of 403? (Darned A- in keyboarding freshman year!) No and he has loved his “normal” high school experience.</p>
<p>I think it’s important to instill a love of learning in your children early on. Read to them, take them on trips, talk to them, expose them to art. Nuture the learning in non-threatening, unpressured ways.</p>
<p>If our son doesn’t get into his reach school, I won’t lament that we didn’t get him a tutor so he could self-study for more AP tests. I will rejoice that he will still have a love of learning wherever he goes.</p>
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<p>OK, I officially surrender. My children, and their children’s children, and all their progeny, are officially removed from the contest. </p>
<p>I’m debating what to do with all the money I’m going to save from not hiring a costuming department. Maybe a family trip to Williamsburg? We haven’t done that yet.</p>
<p>PCP, how does a student in one of these schools become “the best student in my recent memory” when almost ALL of the students are being pre-tutored? Unless that individual is brilliant to begin with (and thus probably didn’t need the tutoring)?</p>
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<p>curmudgeon - The thing is that they don’t require you to submit a transcript. Unless I missed it in the full application (i did skim over the 25 pgs or so)…let me know if i did. All they as you do to is “List all colleges you have attended since ninth grade, including summer schools or enrichment programs hosted on a college campus.” This implies things like summer camps, summer programs (like leadership in the business world program at wharton, etc.), in addition to potentially classes you have taken at any college. So they want you to list them but no where does it say that you have to submit a transcript from any of these programs, colleges, etc. If they did then they would clearly state it. </p>
<p>At any rate, if they think that something is missing they would call you and ask to send that transcript as well. </p>
<p>epiphany - sorry if my comment ended up sounding rude. That was not the intention…all i was trying to say is that it is ridiculous (again not trying to sound rude) to think that leaving something off of an application that is not REQUIRED by the university is morally compromising. By that logic leaving anything off that is not required by the university is morally compromising (like the example i gave of having to list private tutors). I agree that if something is required then you should list it and provide transcripts (again only if they are required).In the example i gave from Harvard’s app, they dont ask you to submit those transcripts all they ask is that you list the schools or programs that you attended…which obviously an applicant should.</p>
<p>The Revolutionary War costume comment made me laugh. Around here, you would go to the DAV or Salvation Army thrift shop, find: 1) a hat that you could shape into a three-corner hat, 2) a discarded military dress uniform jacket, 3) a ruffled ladies blouse and 4) a sash of some sort and call it good!</p>
<p>My husband is retired Air Force. His mess dress jacket and his BDU’s have been borrowed by many a student needing a costume.</p>
<p>What did these tutored kids bring for show-and-tell in kindergarten? Best show-and-tell for the letter “B” that my kids remember: a mom worked as a dispatcher for the street department. She arranged to have a backhoe show up for show-and-tell time. It was way cooler than the Benz or the BMW.</p>
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That was not our experience at all. </p>
<p>Y’all are getting this twisted all out of whack. Feeding the monster. Is the system fair across the board? Gosh, no. But don’t buy into all the hype.</p>
<p>My kid had her a team of 2. It was no tutor, no coach, no connects, no knowledgeable GC, no high school mentor who had ever applied to some of her schools, no Math/Science PhD parents, no Naviance, no school profile, no test prep, no pre-gaming courses (that still just screams “silly” to me). Just me and her and I couldn’t help with math or science after the 7th grade. . </p>
<p>But I had cc and some veteran posters that I listened to because I just “knew” from their postings they spoke the truth without agenda or ego. I knew they weren’t snowing me or showing off or explaining their kid’s failings or bragging about their kid’s “specialness”. </p>
<p>Take advantage of what you have here. Sift through the chaff. There are folks here who can help you. Your job? Figure out who they are. ;)</p>
<p>^^^ Good advice.</p>
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<p>C’mon, cut me some slack here :). I exaggerated to make my point. But now that you mentioned it, here comes my bragging moment. . . on second thought, better just keep it to myself.</p>
<p>+1 for curmudgeon. :)</p>
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<p>That was not my reference point, as I explained already. I was talking about the data that is required, explicitly, on a college app.</p>
<p>And you keep talking about “by that logic.” No, there is no logical connection between what is required and what is not required. Nor did I make that connection, implicitly or explicitly. You keep artificially introducing it.</p>
<p>In my second to last post, the reason that I brought up tutoring, wholistically, is that this is the subject of the thread – the subject that has been investigated, analyzed as to Why? I merely offered a logical reason why families seek (nonessential) tutoring – not the more urgent variety such as teacher’s not teaching it well, has never taught an AP course, etc. Questions have been raised as to the ethics, broadly, of taking a course twice, of getting paid advantage for college admissions, etc. My response is that when the stakes are high enough, ethics as we generally apply them become subordinate to the Goal, which then becomes identified with the absolute Good, around which all morality is then ordered or even rationalized. I made a side comment about cheating because it also has been brought up on the thread, and is definitely an example of the dynamic (in researched studies) of “the stakes being high enough.” I wasn’t equating tutoring with cheating.</p>
<p>I am very logical and become impatient with those who ignore the drift and continuities of arguments on a thread. It’s never helpful to remove posts from their context – including other posts by that poster, on the same thread, and posts responded to in sequence.</p>
<p>Oh, olderwisermom, if you follow that route to the Revolutionary War costume, what about the knee-length breeches with the button cuffs? And the stockings? And probably some special shoes? (No joke–just the general absurdity of the school’s expectations)
Oh, and wait! The wig!</p>
<p>bchan1’s post 259 explains the situation very well. That was what I was trying to communicate when I mentioned my D’s above average math ability for her grade level as evidenced by earning the second highest 8th grade achievement test score in her large middle school, and then later by her high PSAT and SAT scores. Yet somehow, despite working her tail off, she couldn’t pass tests in her 9th grade math class because the teacher skipped half a year or more of material and taught the course to accomodate the level of the pre-taught kids. Despite having the natural intelligence, the proven above-grade level achievement superior to that of her peers, and a good work ethic, she was still effectively shut out of honors math.</p>
<p>GFG - I understand your pain all too well. And I think it is harder on girls because when they don’t ‘make the cut’ they are more likely to internalize it, teenage girls are very self-conscious. I do think that Pizzagirl has a point - things will shake out differently in the end because at some point Johny Inc. will have to stand on his own two feet - but, when your kid is in high school and being squeezed out of a good education by this out of whack competitiveness that not only allows but encourages teachers to skim through massive amounts of material at the speed of light (they in essense stop teaching and instead create the final exam for the pre-taught course) it doesn’t feel good at all. You know it isn’t good for your child - and it’s not really good for Johny Inc. either, but we now have US News rating high schools so you know it will continue.</p>