<p>To expand my last post, one way the current economy may help the situation is if more companies with shrinking profits begin expanding and broadening low-paid internship positions for professional-track jobs. If such opportunities become more widely available for college grads – more dispersed and perhaps more networked with a variety of colleges, geographically, and by category and “tier” – it will cease to be a financial reality that Elites guarantee job/life success immediately upon graduation, and vice-versa.</p>
<p>Not always, BCEagle. Many U’s, particularly publics, have rigid prereqs and/or limit upper-division to class level. Even more true for grad level.</p>
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<p>Could you provide an example? My son took upper-level courses as a freshman. He even took a grad course when he was 15.</p>
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<p>But what American adult doesn’t know this already? I mean, I get it with people who are new to this country, who somehow think that HYPSM and a handful of other schools are The Determiners of Life Success. But there’s simply no excuse for someone who was raised here not to understand that there are plenty of paths to life success other than HYPSM.</p>
<p>So why not zag where everyone else zigs? Really – the kinds of people who are so insistent on creating Johnny Incs who get into HYPSM – *let HYPSM have them. * </p>
<p>If HYPSM are truly that overrun with Johnny Incs, well, then who needs places like that, and why would I want my kid to be around a bunch of Johnny Incs anyway? </p>
<p>I have to tell you, I find the notion of a top university filled solely with Johnny Incs and solely with parents / kids who have already predetermined life’s path of (pick one) med school / law school / i-banking / consulting / engineering and who have been prepped and coached to achieve that from day one to be bleak, dreary places. Creativity and imagination mean a lot in this world. And the more I’m on CC and I read about these overprepped kids all striving for the same thing, the more I want to revolt against the whole thing.</p>
<p>I’m not into micro-research on this, BCEagle. Again, it depends on the U, as well as the major. Some U’s are more flexible/open than others. For example, U of Chicago allows & encourages undergrads to enroll in grad courses. In other cases, with other U’s, there are reasons for some of the prereq’s, because of prior course content. There are courses which can be challenged or petitioned. Depends also on class enrollment maximums, which have been esp. impacted in certain regions (esp. for large Publics, again). A U and a department already impacted is not going to compromise section/seminar size just to accommodate an ambitious freshman or high school student. Your example does not hold true universally.</p>
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<p>They’re not overrun with Junior Corporate. They’re brimming with unusual, creative types, combined with some absolutely sterling brains in the hard sciences who did not get that way artificially.</p>
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<p>You’d be amazed at the number who do not. :)</p>
<p>Well, then they’re stupid, and I don’t have the time of day for stupid people. Their stupidity is not my problem. </p>
<p>Where have they been their entire adult lives, to think that only a handful of universities mean life success? Do they not have eyes? If they are truly that stupid, then how did they ever get to make enough money to be in the position of being able to create Johnny Inc (through tutoring, living in the finest school districts, etc.)?</p>
<p>YK, while we’re all sitting here decrying how terrible it is that Johnny Inc’s parents have created Johnny Incs, there’s more than a little pretentiousness about the whole “well, my kid just has to take college / grad school courses else he’ll be so very bored in life” stuff. It seems that’s just another version of Johnny Inc posturing.</p>
<p>“many of whom were not Incorporated–, end up with wonderful careers (and perhaps even less debt!) and divulge this secret to their own children”</p>
<p>just to remind folks, that certain Ivies have financial aid policies that make them far more affordable then other elite and not so elite privates. If Jonny Inc can get into say, Columbia instead of NYU, he will end up with LESS debt, not more.</p>
<p>BBD, in my area, the tutoring mania is driven by wealthy families who will not benefit from the Ivies’ generous financial aid policies. (Tutoring is very expensive, and does not come with financial aid.)</p>
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<p>I just wanted one example where I could go to a website and look at
their rules. If you’re making a claim, surely you can provide one
example.</p>
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<p>But U of Chicago isn’t a public university, right?</p>
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<p>What would a transfer students do then?</p>
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<p>I do understand the funding issues with public universities and problems
getting into certain classes but aren’t these usually more lecture-hall
classes instead of upper-level courses where enrollments are lighter?</p>
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<p>I’ve seen sections where the professor lets in more students than on
the admin system. Not sure of the motivation but it is done.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say that it does. It is simply an example.</p>
<p>Basically what I requested from you.</p>
<p>If it’s common in public universities, then you should simply be able
to point me to one.</p>
<p>“well, my kid just has to take college / grad school courses else he’ll be so very bored in life” </p>
<p>Way back in second grade DD’s jewish day school held her in “regular math” cause she wasnt finishing her homework, she WAS bored and did poorly. We sent her to a math enrichment summer program (cause DD was interested in it) run by the schools enrichment math teacher, and she asked “why isnt ___ in advanced math?” She finally got the right placement, and did BETTER, because she wasn’t bored anymore. Similarly when they put in the easy Hebrew class, for social reasons (it was smaller, run by a gentler teacher than the standard issue Israelis, etc) she got bored with that. Gifted kids, esp I think gifted ADHD kids, are like that. DD does get bored if not intellectually challenged. I do not know if she could create her own challenges in a boring environment, as this has not really been an issue last 4 years at TJ. </p>
<p>This was an issue for us in the college app process - we didn’t want her to go somewhere where she would flounder cause its too pressured, but also didn’t want somewhere where it would be too easy. If she did go to a safety school, we wanted to make sure it WAS somewhere where she caould use her initiative to add challenge, including by taking grad level courses. As it happens she will be attending RPI, which we hope is going to be a goldilocks school for her - not to pressured and not too easy. We will see.</p>
<p>411</p>
<p>the ivies aid policies, IIUC, are of benefit to folks right up to about 180k family income or so. I am pretty sure there are at least a few folks around her with incomes below 180k who do a fair amount of tutoring, test prep, etc though perhaps not to the level y’all are talking about above.</p>
<p>“Creativity and imagination mean a lot in this world. And the more I’m on CC and I read about these overprepped kids all striving for the same thing, the more I want to revolt against the whole thing.”</p>
<p>Way to go Pizzagirl ! I like Tufts and Chicago essay questions.</p>
<p>“If they are truly that stupid, then how did they ever get to make enough money to be in the position of being able to create Johnny Inc (”</p>
<p>pardon my saying this, but you seem to have a strong belief in the existence of a close correlation between income and “merit” in this country.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say it was. I’m contrasting Chicago with large public U’s. Please, check them out yourself. Policies vary greatly, by major, by campus, by enrollment year (depending on how many students are impacting that major). For some majors, some years, some U’s, petitioning for enrollment can be fluid; for other combinations of factors, it can be prohibited. It’s a combination, and to “do research” (that you are demanding, which is somewhat off-topic & hijacking the thread) on what is obvious to anyone who knows anything about the variety of academic policies in higher education is a waste of time.</p>
<p>The option is available to some, not to all students in all circumstances. Does anyone else on this thread “demand” that I prove this by extensive posting of research? Hell, let me know if there’s a battle-cry here. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>To me, it’s obvious that BCEagle has not done his research if he assumes that what was true for his son is true universally. New Hampshire is not the world.</p>
<p>I don’t think the hyps goal is so much about life success, top schools have become the new status symbol. It’s not your country club or partial ownership in a sports team, it’s where your kid goes to school. This is what drives the competition for top schools. And people live in their times, we’re all susceptible to these pressures.</p>
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<p>I am indeed talking about high-income pockets who do more than a “fair amount” of tutoring. IOW, the “Corporate Johnny” types. I promise you they will not be offered significant aid at Columbia.</p>
<p>And ephinay is right! U want to get in to hyps, don’t be a Johnny Inc…I know this for sure. These top schools are full of creative out of the box individuals, they really are unique institutions, full of amazing people</p>