Competing academically against kids who have private tutors

<p>Hmm…chiming in late here. S attended a mediocre suburban school district. No tutoring phenomena for top students. S was not a top student. Bright, but unmotivated.</p>

<p>I sent S for tutoring in middle school for study and time management skills., probably related to untreated ADD issues. </p>

<p>S is doing well in his college engineering program despite not getting tutored to top grades in high school. In fact, he is privately tutoring other students at his college in the general chemistry class.</p>

<p>We do not have the money to pay for private tutoring if it’s not needed. Younger D’s attend a private elementary school. Any extra help other than after school help from the teachers is provided by me or my H.</p>

<p>I see this as some kind of competitive phenomena, but ultimately, what is the benefit? Does getting into a ‘better’ school lead to lifelong success as an adult? At my workplace (engineering related), people are judged on their work history rather than where they went to school.</p>

<p>And how do kids learn to be self sufficient and help themselves if they are getting extra help all along the way? Does this continue in college?</p>

<p>I am all for extra help and study groups, but this seems over the top to me.</p>

<p>There’s another element here: lots of kids, mine included, get homework help from their parents (or their friends). Now, my kids happen to have parents with PhDs, in complementary subjects (I can take all history and English questions; he can do math and science). Anytime one of my children has a tough paper to write, he or she can count on me to spend as much time as needed to talk it through, edit, improve (no, I do not write it for them!). So they don’t need tutors, but they’re lucky, because I have both the background <em>and the time</em> for them. Some parents don’t have the background, but also I’ll bet lots of parents don’t have the desire to spend time with their kids, or perhaps the relationship with their kids that would allow that kind of help. I expect it’s a lot cooler to spend time with a tutor than with your parents.</p>

<p>I really don’t understand the hyper-competition that seems to exist in some schools and communities. Maybe it’s just my personality. I encourage my kids to follow their passions and do their best and see where that takes them. DH and I were both NMF, back in the day, and attended a “top-tier” university (no tutoring - SAT or otherwise). However, neither of our kids are the least bit interested in that. And BTW, neither DH or I are working in our original fields (and are earning much less money), but we’re happy!</p>

<p>However, full disclosure, both our kids are musicians and we pay for private lessons. So I’m not opposed to paying for extra help in an area of passion.</p>

<p>I think PaperChaserPop has hit on a very interesting split here.<br>
In the communities where this is the norm, there is an arms race and students feel tutoring is necessary, even when they are very smart and capable, just to manage the competition.<br>
If most other students in a kid’s advanced classes are not doing it, there is no need for a non-struggling student.</p>

<p>So it seems like kids are swimming against the tide if they don’t have the extra help. What a mess! I believe that the frenzy probably started with the onset of SAT prep programs. Once kids (by which I mean parents) realized that they could “game” the test with enough prep and repeated practice, then it became a matter of “gaming” the GPA, too. I don’t know if adcoms are able to draw conclusions when they see grades and scores that don’t match up with recommendations. I have to think they do.
I would assume that some of these kids(grades that don’t match intellect) are weeded out through the interview process at the top schools, but for the vast majority, the system rewards the kids whose stats are the best, plain and simple. No one ever said that the system is perfect.</p>

<p>PaperChaserPop, I think you missed my point. Of course learning is enhanced if a student has occasional one-on-one access to a teacher, coach, mentor or tutor. The problem occurs when there is a perpetual tutor available several times a week at a set schedule. The path of least resistance for the student is then often not to work hard to solve the problem by oneself, but to wait for the next help session – and THAT becomes a crutch. </p>

<p>Over-reliance on tutors just promotes laziness. There is very little about a subject that one cannot learn from a book or a Google search if one is motivated. I’ve never understood why parents pay $500-$1000 for their child’s SAT/ACT test prep class when books containing the same materials are readily available for under $20.</p>

<p>I agree there can be some student laziness that develops, but since there are tutors in college too these kids don’t ever need to wean themselves, do they?</p>

<p>One interesting thing was that my D had to drop an honors math class in 9th grade, despite having been in the advanced math classes ever since 4th grade and doing very well. The district had changed its math curriculum that year, and essentially skipped ahead 6 months, as per the words of the district math supervisor. Since D had never been tutored in math, she really struggled and decided to drop down a level. She was not alone–a number of very bright kids in her class who hadn’t ever been tutored also dropped down a level. (I know this because they were siblings of high-achieving kids who were in my older child’s grade and so we parents discussed the situation.) Unfortunately, that meant D could never be in honors math again.</p>

<p>D’s confidence in her math abilities was severely shaken. I was pretty angry about it since I knew she was very capable. In fact, I was told that she had the second highest achievement test scores of any kid in her middle school. Also, she had qualified for the Johns Hopkins CTY math classes by virture of her SAT score in 7th grade. (We couldn’t afford the classes, though.) But she couldn’t just catch up 6 months. I think that a loss of confidence in the non-tutored child is a major issue, by the way.</p>

<p>The interesting thing was, when SAT time came around in junior year, she outscored a lot of those kids who had stayed in the honors track, and won a NM scholarship for her PSAT score. I’m not sure why this happened. Maybe she received a better foundation by moving at a less accelerated pace in math? Or maybe she was a better problem solver because she had to always figure things out on her own, including when self-studying for the SAT.</p>

<p>PCP, the IMO competitors we know personally were taking graduate level math courses well before they were selected for IMO. I seriously doubt they are learning pre-calc.</p>

<p>"Many kids who start out thinking they want to be doctors or engineers switch gears not because they’re tanking academically, but because they’ve found another academic area "</p>

<p>-Very few, yes. Majority who switch, are “tanking academically”. These majors have weed out killer classes specifically designed to weed out those who cannot handle it academically. However, some stronger (I mean with strong personalities) kids who realize that they are lacking, will seek help, some of them by paid tutors, nothing is wrong with that.</p>

<p>Since PCP quoted me (my “#3”) among others, I’ll respond first to that quote:</p>

<p>I can only speak for my region, Pop, where I’m more aware of the dynamics and the underlying reasons, because I’ve watched trends, work in the field, and am in close communication with many levels & types of schools and with the “system” in general. I want to stress that my observations are true for publics. I have not found a significant “recent” change in approach or content at privates, overall. For the most part, privates in my region have remained constant. They are also for the most part quite difficult to get into because of demand vs. supply, and even without demand, the supply is low. Finally, by the time the family discovers that the student is unprepared to be competitive in some significant way, it is too late to apply to that private school, because much of the time this is discovered in early high school.</p>

<p>A lot of it is related to the money and “the system” – i.e., cost control withiin increasingly burdened public services for a correspondingly shrinking public dollar, and the fact that schools are “controlled” not only by the physical currency but by their internal cultural currency which is more based on a union mentality (“workers’ rights”) than on the guiding ethics of the profession. IOW, while it is true that larger classes & fewer prep periods burden a teacher more (are objectively “unfair”), there’s nothing to prevent a conscientious teacher from doing the same amount of work he or she would normally do/have done…except that the teacher faces pressure from the union & local rep not to take on such duties. There are definitely teachers who resist such union pressures to punch a clock; they are the ones I both respect & feel much sympathetic anger with, because it is objectively unfair not to increase pay proportionately. But welcome to the 21st century world. In case teachers haven’t noticed, nurses are overburdened (not receiving commensurate pay with increased responsibilities), as are workers in many private & public sectors.</p>

<p>My dermatologist is way past retirement. He keeps working not only because he still loves medicine, but also because he has many patients who still need him. He also works longer hours than he should for his age, but most of that is definitely because of his professional commitment. He’s not the only dermatologist in town, but he has vast experience and is also not ready to abandon his melanoma patients until he’s confident they will be equally cared for elsewhere. I experienced the same with my former gynecologist, who had specialty knowledge/training for special cases and delayed his retirement because of that.</p>

<p>My internist takes on some uninsured patients who can’t pay her full fees; she charges them half-price. Because she’s a stand-up woman and gives two figs for their medical care. It’s also what you do when you’re a professional.</p>

<p>Writing is not sufficiently assigned by teachers because instructing to it and correcting for it are time-consuming. Second, as I’ve said often, teachers are caving in to the public culture of short-cuts, shorthand, impatience with difficult tasks. It’s the fast-food educational culture. The excuses I hear from them are all related to that: “Students won’t take the time;” “students don’t know how to write.” Um, yes. That’s why it’s your job to teach them how. </p>

<p>As I mentioned elsewhere, formal writing tasks are being much too ignored in grades 7 and 8, when if anything they should be ramped up in preparation for h.s. So even if 5th & 6th grade students had excellent writing training (the vast majority do not), they are out of practice by the time they reach Grade 9. Again, we’re talking formal writing here. Therefore, it will be an especially time-consuming task for a h.s. teacher to begin the training or retraining process, along with all the other material the teacher is being required to teach. The only “solution” to this is outside tutoring.</p>

<p>Structure of writing is based not only on form, but also on mechanics, which are not being sufficiently taught. Typically, grammar will be “introduced” in 5th and/or 7th, and never spoken about again. So if you have no idea how a sentence must be structured, and how the English language is built, or how to complexify your sentence, you will find writing a real drag. It will be as difficult as trying to build or repair a car with only 2 or 3 tools or pieces of equipment at your disposal.</p>

<p>Ease of writing is related to literacy – at the very least, subconsciously. Study after study has found that breadth & frequency of reading makes writing far easier. You have styles & standards of expression imprinted in your brain, not to mention accurate & colorful vocabulary. My students are severely lacking in vocabulary in context, and in familiarity with varieties of expression, because they are not being required to read widely, nor are interested in doing so. They’d rather play with their electronic toys. And they’re not going to read a whole book on Kindle, unless it’s a category of book that does not address these needs of literacy acquisition.</p>

<p>As to teaching how to prepare for tests, and teaching other study skills, part of it is the same excuse I’ve found above: “not enough time” in the school day to address this. Again, I have just always considered this essential to my job, as did my own teachers. But it has also lost value as part of teacher training, which is unfortunate, because it is not “obvious” to a student how to study. How to be a student is one thing that any teacher should consider an essential set of skills. I know this is still important overseas, or at least has been historically – such as in parts of Asia and Europe.</p>

<p>What I find particularly troubling is the failure to teach, in the regular school day, how to think critically, read critically. This is also something that doesn’t necessarily “just come naturally” to the student; it must be directly taught. There is also naturally a “time” excuse for that. But just note that what is being replaced for careful thinking & thoughtful writing is often just more curriculum crammed into the school day (on any grade level, before & after high school). Part of this is a pull from outside, from an information-oriented culture, which assumes that U.S. students are more ignorant than students from other countries because they don’t get enough “stuff” in the regular school day, when in reality it’s more that their outside reading levels are so poor.</p>

<p>Finally, others have alluded to this, reflecting on the “recent” nature of trends: When you get wealth and a high level of parental education, combined with density, in any given area, you are goiing to get a hyper-consciousness about educational competitiveness, and if addressing preparation for college cannot be solved in the public school, you will seek outside private or commercial sources as long as you are not willing to surrender to mediocre preparation.</p>

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<p>Good grief. This isn’t tutoring, at least, not as most posters have understood the term in this entire thread. Any team selected for an international competition, whether in music, sport, debate, or mathematics, will have some practice sessions. The IMO teams practice problems drawn from all areas of math prior to competition.</p>

<p>Our family never hired tutors for either of our children, and that includes one who participated in state and national math and science competitions and is now at MIT. But her math team definitely arranged practice sessions, and so did the science bowl team. In my experience, the families here in Silicon Valley that hire tutors do so because they want their children to excel at the highest possible level in math and science; if English is the family’s second language, they will hire tutors to help their children reach mastery of the language. </p>

<p>Are more people using tutors? It’s hard to say. Young men and women could earn a fairly decent living working as tutors in the nineteenth century, serving families that expected to send their children to higher education. Perhaps the proportion of families that use tutors has not changed at all. Perhaps the increase in tutors and tutoring services simply reflects the fact that a far, far larger share of the population now expects to send sons and daughters to college.</p>

<p>Just my 2 cents.</p>

<p>I think we as parents have created this arms race because we are insecure. Insecure in that we are worried that if our children aren’t “the best” they won’t have happy and fulfilled lives. We want our kids to have “perfect” lives. Maybe the “perfect” lives we never had or perhaps the perfect lives we do have and enjoy. Our parental desire for them to be happy drives us to push them to reach high. If they don’t get into a “good” school, how will they ever become sucessful? </p>

<p>No one wants their kids to be the average guy, sitting in a cubicle doing mundane tasks. We want our kids to be doctors, but not any doctors, doctors at the Mayo Clinic. We want them to be THE innovators of the next generation. Nothing short of being at the top of the heap will do. It is insane and creates an environment that smart kids need tutors so they can score even higher, achieve even more, and have a job with a bright and economically secure future. </p>

<p>That is where I think it comes from.</p>

<p>Private tutoring is just another aspect of the “Affirmative Action” provided for the privileged that has been operating for some time. This is why a little tilt for those not endowed with this privilege is not such a bad thing. No AA complaints here.</p>

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<p>That’s it exactly. The irony is I know plenty of doctors and guess what… many of them hate their jobs. I work with people who went to Ivies or Elite schools. Not a one of them is more ‘successful’ that the guy in the next office who went to the State U.</p>

<p>The bottom line, when it comes to career success, is motivation. A parent who has to push their kid at every turn or otherwise manages to send the clear message that the kid will be a disappointment if he or she doesn’t achieve at the top level is perhaps setting that kid up for failure - maybe not monetary failure but emotional failure. The couches of behavioral health specialists are filled with adults who felt like they were never quite good enough for mommy or daddy. This kind of things will spill over into marriages and their own parent-child relationships. My belief is parents need to be very careful about the message they are sending their kids when it comes to being successful - academically, athletically or otherwise. It’s a delicate balance.</p>

<p>Parents message should be very clear: “Use me, I am here to help”. It will not only save $$ but will earn more respect from your kid.</p>

<p>That would work in some households, depending on the professional background of the parents.
However, in our household, we are not qualified to help in a math class like BC Calculus that we never took or tutor our child in a class we took twenty-five years ago.</p>

<p>You are underestimating yourself. How about taking classed about 40 years ago and never ever using math or science? Kids have textbooks. They are not good at using them. Textbooks have indexes on a back. Open the book, figure out material and sit down with a kid to do a problem alongside, he is doing on his paper, you are trying your best on yours. The goal is to get correct answers for every single homework problem AT HOME. It will make huge diff. Much more diff. than any paid tutor. Kid might end up graduating #1 in his HS class. it did happened to my D, it can happen to anybody with supporting (but not necessarily rich) parents.</p>

<p>My, but you do like to generalize, MiamiDAP. Have you done a controlled, double blind study that tells you that “the majority” of students in colleges across the country who start out as pre-meds switch because they can’t handle the work? </p>

<p>Let me help you out. When kids go to college, they discover an intellectual world they didn’t know existed. Many who believed they wanted to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, a particle physicist, whatever, switch gears because they discover rich new intellectual interests. Perhaps many pre-meds flunk out at your daughter’s university. And I’m certain there are plenty of would-be docs who can’t hack it at other schools, too. But it’s just not accurate to say, as you have, that the vast majority who start out thinking they want to be doctors change their minds because they can’t master the curriculum.</p>

<p>I know why parents pay for a test prep class. Because the kids won’t do self study. I’ve seen this over and over again, the student has the best of intentions but the reality is that the SAT prep book doesn’t get cracked. A class provides a time and place where they will do some prep each week. And many parents think “something is better than nothing!”</p>

<p>As for a private tutor, my dad helped me with math all through high school. How is that different from hiring a tutor if the parent doesn’t have strong enough math skills?</p>

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QFT. Extreme truth.</p>

<p>Another radical generalization – that any parent, regardless of what level math they took in high school, can properly tutor Calculus BC. I would not trust some parents to tutor that level of math, much as I would not trust certain parents (including myself) to tutor someone in English grammar.</p>