Don’t all schools have social clubs that are exclusive? Whether finals clubs, eating clubs, fraternities and sororities. Perhaps the service academies don’t, but everyone else seems to have something.
2 Likes
Why can’t they organize another 20 teams and form their own league? 20*11 = 220.
2 Likes
Roughly half of the eating clubs are sign-in, but still capacity constrained – so first come first serve.
Yes, that’s why I said when I first mentioned it that I didn’t know if the exclusivity of Harvard’s Final Clubs were any better or worse than Greek rush at a southern school like Alabama. My point was to dispute the idea that Harvard was now an egalitarian institution.
1 Like
It seems to me that interview prep and industry connection should be handled through career services. I haven’t heard a good reason for why that’s not the case. Yes, yes, we all know it’s competitive out there. It’s not a novel concept, and believe it or not, there was competition 20 years ago. So it is incumbent on career services to help make their students competitive.
Philosophically, it rubs me the wrong way, too, that my kid’s peers would have any role in whether she’d have access to guidance and other inside baseball to give her a competitive edge in the interview process. This would be particularly problematic on campuses where kids from the social clubs/Greek system ran the club show as well. Where I went to school, the Greeks dominated campus life despite their limited % of the total student body.
I suppose if the criteria were 100% objective and nobody exercised admission discretion, then it would be harder to complain. But outside of that, If I’m dropping $65k a year, I expect the people in career services to do something to earn their keep.
Having said all that, one of my kids has taken advantage of a privileged track when doing IB interviews. Her LAC has a strong alumni network and athletes there have an extra network on which to draw, and that network is loyal, shows up and delivers. If I were the parent of a NARP, that would rub me the wrong way too.
4 Likes
Career services cannot handle this because that is not where the interview skills expertise is for a vast majority of jobs. It is with the students who did it the prior year or two. Actually interview skills training is a relatively low bandwidth activity and is not capacity constrained. My son is part of a group in campus that helps kids with resume preparation, career counselling, interview prep etc. for tech jobs. They are not capacity constrained, and they do a far better job than career services can – even what courses to take for what careers / jobs etc. But some of the more selective clubs involve 5-10 hours of work a week. For example the investment club (called TCM) manages actual money, and has students covering sectors and making presentations about what to buy and sell – this is seriously capacity constrained, and is difficult entry. Clubs are not exclusive just for the heck of it.
3 Likes
@roycroftmom , i understand how acapella singers assess talent and fit for a group that they are a part of. But how do students, who may have had at most a few months of an internship, assess other students ’ ability to do these jobs successfully? So they are assessing what?? That’s the rub.
4 Likes
They are assessing mostly effort. Can you put in 5-10 hours a week? And skill in cases like debate. You can get in the club this year, and if you slack off, you can get fired.
I can’t imagine any career services taking on this task-it is highly labor and time intensive for a small fraction of its student population.
Overall the acceptance rate for those who apply to MBB and top IB firms hovers around 1%. At target schools that is up to maybe 15%. Most students won’t apply there, and career services are geared for what most students do.
3 Likes
Deleted duplicate post
The consulting club at Princeton also consults pro bono for non profits. And therefore has prestige. It is also capacity constrained because you need to get business from non profits that you then deliver on. You can’t have 50 kids on one non profit assignment.
1 Like
Well, partly they are assessing interest and perseverance. Are candidates willing to attend the events, interviews and paperwork required?
Partly they are assessing commitment-why this club, what are you hoping to get out of it and give back? Are you a good representative for this club?
Partly it would be social-do you fit in with us? Can we spend lots of time with you?
I think the a capella groups are also considering the above.
3 Likes
The extent varies. Yes, certain types of clubs, if present, are traditionally exclusive or competitive (fraternities, sororities, and similar organizations), some activities are capacity-limited and can be competitive if there is more interest than space (such as a performing arts production, newspaper staff, student government office, sports team; more likely to be more competitive at larger schools). It also seems that much of this thread is talking about clubs seen as an inside track to recruiting for coveted jobs (the usual investment banking and management consulting) where it is perceived that club membership gives a substantial advantage.
But there are other types of clubs which are not traditionally exclusive or competitive and not capacity constrained to the point that a typical college would have enough interest to overflow them (such as a hiking club, club associated with a major, cultural club, etc.), nor are they seen as a stepping stone or weed-out step in a competitive pre-professional route. Are those clubs commonly competitive at colleges that have a reputation for competitive clubs?
Seems like if you do not like competitive clubs, choose a school with a smaller on-campus popularion, without (or with minimal interest in) fraternities, sororities, or similar organizations, and where there is not a lot of aspiration for investment banking or management consulting or anything else along those lines where an on-campus club may become (seen as) part of the recruiting process.
2 Likes
Truthfully, I “like” (or at least don’t hate) all those things and would love it if my children could “Forrest Gump” their way into any club they desire.
1 Like
So in that case, it sounds like anybody can join. If so, no problem. If not, then the issue stands, and career services needs to step it up. This seems like an example of something that should be available to anybody who is interested. At the three schools my kids attended, there were multiple counselors by career sector. What are they doing if not the things you describe your kid’s club doing? As for culling the herd, if a kid walks into career services with a 2.5 GPA in General Studies, I’d expect staff to dissuade that kid from expectations of working for Goldman.
For clubs where there are actual substantive and competitive activities, of course, weed away. I’m the parent of three serious athletes. We wanted fast recruits for the boat and ferocious competitors on the pitch. I get that. It just sounded like others were describing student-run clubs that served a gatekeeping role for industry. It is that with which I have a problem. If I have misunderstood, then mea culpa.
Some would say (as you have) that is an inside track too. Anecdotally, at target schools, it seems that athletes get to bypass the competitive club thing.
And that is fine.
2 Likes
There are many clubs for which even leadership positions go begging :-). Because unlike high school, it is not very useful on a resume. And it is often 25 hours a week. Last year my son’s eating club struggled to fill the positions for the 5 office bearers. If they drop to 4, the load on the 4 increase. This year they struggled to fill the President positions for one of the important tech clubs. The outgoing President had a small list of people he would have liked to draw from (based on his assessment of skill, temperment etc) and none of them had interest. I am sure there are more examples like this on campus. This is partly the reason universities want kids with a wide set of interests – so that they can keep the campus community vibrant, by running all these services around campus in an unpaid capacity, just out of passion.
4 Likes
I think the gatekeeping happens if one club is doing several things, and one or more of these things are capacity constrained. Often the capacity is just the number of people that have time to advice you – senior students.
A lot of the interview prep cannot be done by career services.
Career services has no idea what gets asked in a GS, or Google or HRT interview. Or what the company culture is. Or which version of the probability course of the many that are offered on campus to take for which job etc.
4 Likes
And this is where the BS starts. Who is “we”? And why do their particular preferences, which are entirely of a function of the their particular social milieu, rule the day? True, you can’t eliminate it entirely, even when working with university career services staff. But you don’t have to make it worse by putting students in charge of the gatekeeping role. That will only make it worse because they don’t answer to anybody.
If there are objective criteria, then fine. “Hey, this takes 15 hours a week. You up for that? Great.” Hey, MBB is really looking people with these skills. I see you’re majoring in Poetry. That’s not likely to lead to success here. You sure you want to do this? Good, let’s not waste your time." Beyond that, you’re introducing the same BS that keeps the girl with a weight or skin complexion problem out of the sorority.
8 Likes
This is exactly the case at any number of schools, including prestigious ones. I can speak directly to career services at my D’s highly selective LAC which was of zero help during her IB interview application and interview process during soph year.
I expect the fact that career services at some, maybe many schools, is unable to meaningfully advise on IB, other banking, MBB, or other selective jobs is one factor that has directly led to the formation of consulting and banking clubs (some exclusive, some not) geared to helping students with the application timelines, interview prep, networking events, etc.
6 Likes