<p>I keep hearing this term, and it usually seems to mean high schools with a lot to offer academically, where so many of the students perform so well that it becomes extremely difficult to rank very high, even if one makes all A's.</p>
<p>Watching threads from kids from these high schools who are now being rejected from the state school of their choice is both heartbreaking AND frustrating.</p>
<p>I've seen it more than a couple of times now - the kid has a decent gpa, has not ranked in the top 10%, or maybe even in the top 25%, has taken all these AP courses and has hours and hours of EC, but scores less than a 1200 (less than 1100 in one case) on the SAT (CR +M)!!!</p>
<p>And then they're suprised when they can't get into a top-notch public program. And they get angry at the UNIVERSITY that won't let them in.</p>
<p>I would be furious with my HIGH SCHOOL for not properly counseling me, that given my circumstances, I should really focus in on my SAT/ACT and score as highly as possible, because it may be very difficult for me to get into the university of my choice based on my rank. And I would be furious with myself for not researching the admission requirements and striving to meet the auto-admit requirements tooth and nail.</p>
<p>And it really makes me wonder how a kid can make straight A's (with a few B's sprinkled) in AP classes and participate in all of these EC's at the same time and then go score a 1060 on the SAT? Is this child prepared for a really tough school? Who knows?</p>
<p>Who says their school didn’t counsel them properly? Maybe the student and/or parents ignored their advice because the student is getting “good grades”. I see that time and time again here, they are A students–then pull off a crappy ACT/SAT because “they don’t test well”. Until you have both, and both have to match, you just never know. I do know that so called 'top" schools are not going to admit a 4.0 with low test scores, it just doesn’t happen unless they are a gifted athlete. If a lot of kids are getting 4.0’s, the school is not competitive with the exception of elite prep schools that ONLY take the tippy top kids.</p>
<p>True, SteveMA. You could be right. Maybe the school did counsel them properly. I just wonder how these kids can emerge with the EXPECTATION of “Well of course they’ll want me! I’m great, I’ve been great all my life! I make good grades, I do good things!”</p>
<p>It just leaves me wondering what those grades in those schools really mean. I notice these kids rarely post their AP scores. So perhaps they take the class and make an A, and then make a 2 or a 3 on the test. Who knows? But it seems if they had a pocketful of 5’s they’d be able to pull off a better SAT/ACT score.</p>
<p>And yea, we have a lot of PUBLIC schools in the (rather large) area where A LOT of kids are getting 4.0’s. We hired a young man for the summer one time that had a 3.9 gpa and didn’t make it into the top 10%. HIS SAT scores, however, were astronomical.</p>
<p>Alexisssss - I know! I have a D that is the same way. Brilliant child, made a 1220, which was exactly enough to make honors in her college. She was happy, no need to retest. But for some of the top public institutions, it’s not even enough to guarantee you admission!</p>
<p>I really think it’s just lack of preparation for the SAT/ACT.</p>
<p>On the opposite side, I have a family member graduating from a VERY competitive high school, with an ACT score of 35, and he was convinced that no colleges would want him and was afraid to apply, because his GPA wasn’t a 4.7 or whatever the other kids have there. HELLO, there are plenty of other kids from less “tippy-top” high schools who manage to be accepted, I think someone will want you! </p>
<p>Guidance counselors need to let these kids know that there is an entire spectrum of opportunities between Harvard and community college!!</p>
<p>It can be harder for students to get into certain elite/respectable colleges due to the increased competition, but conversely…the reputation of the school may be such other elite/respectable colleges are willing to take more students and dip deeper into the class than other high schools. </p>
<p>Observed both at my urban public magnet high school from the GC college admissions reports. I myself experienced the latter…especially considering the abysmal HS GPA I had for my college. Am thinking the reputation of said high school, fact most of us don’t tend to apply to LACs in the same numbers, and my being male helped somewhat. </p>
<p>Then again, my HS was of the time where the usual lopsided student was one with low HS GPA, but high SAT scores considering the HS’s average SAT score approaches 2100 last I checked. It wasn’t unusual back in the early-mid-'90s to see someone with 1250-1400/1600 Pre-1995 SATs and yet, a HS GPA hovering somewhere between 1.x and 2.x range.</p>
<p>They can make a 1060 and get all A’s because grade inflation is rampant. Also, course labels can be meaningless. Just because a course is billed as honors, AP, etc., doesn’t mean it’s actually taught at a high level or that expectations for students are high. </p>
<p>I think parents and students believe their school is competitive for various reasons. Many base it on the number of kids with hgh GPA’s. However, because of grade inflation, the GPA’s might not be a true reflection of achievement. At our local public school, a GPA in the lower 90’s puts a kid in the bottom half of the class. At the best private schools in our area, that GPA would put a kid in the top 10%. Many parents assume that if their kid is getting all A’s, everything must be OK, but then they and their kids are shocked when they get a 24 ACT or 1060 SAT. </p>
<p>Other people think their school is competitive because they score well on state tests, lots of students take AP classes, or a magazine has named it a top high school.</p>
<p>We typically have one or two 4.0’s (on a 4 pt scale-no grade weighting). Kids in the top 20% are still scoring 30+ on the ACT though. I would consider our high school competitive. One of the neighboring high schools, the top 10 kids all scored under 30 even though they all have 4.0’s. I would not consider that a competitive high school–but, if you ask the parents of those kids, they would think differently. I would rather have a 3.7 with a high ACT/SAT vs a 4.0 with a low test score…</p>
<p>I agree with prefect - grade inflation has become ridiculous.</p>
<p>A “competitive” high school is one with a high percentage of helicopter parents. These parents pitch fits whenever their child receives an A-. The result is a 3.9 GPA in the second decile (incredible example from crommette). Too often, top grades go to those who complain effectively and not to those who actually master course material.</p>
<p>State flagship admissions can be highly political and influenced more by geography than either grades or GPA. There are some counties in Kentucky that UK practically begs anyone to attend so that they have representation from throughout the state. Concurrently, they will reject a well-qualified 3.5 GPA student from Louisville suburbs where they receive an abundance of applicants.</p>
<p>Ok, but consider this. For many years my department has been trying to identify students to accept into our program. Here’s what I can tell you about using test scores: they are pretty much useless in determining which students persist and which will blow it. GPA alone is a little better, but hardly a slam dunk. Student at a competitive high school doesn’t have a great ACT? So what. Don’t get into top college? Oh well. Most people don’t.</p>
<p>To my knowledge there’s no test that will show me personal work ethic and motivation (as opposed to parental work ethic and motivation).</p>
<p>I hate how the SAT/ACT is used to basically define intelligence these days.
As if the tests cannot be gamed. </p>
<p>Take the science portion of the ACT for example. It does not actually test one’s scientific knowledge, but, rather how fast one can answer questions and read graphs.</p>
<p>Every kid in the top 10% at my kid’s high school has a 4.2W or above GPA and a 32-36 ACT. My DD13a is in the top 10% while my DD13b is in the top 25%. Both have thus far gotten into every school they applied to with one deferral to RD (UChicago for DD13a). DD13b has a 27/28 superscore on the ACT and a 3.9W something GPA. My “crack baby” with her 27 (got an 11 on the writing though; woo hooo!) got into several OOS schools that are more selective and with decent scholarships. Harvard? Um no, didn’t even try! DD13a has one full scholarship and is waiting to hear on another, and a half scholarship (most they offer) at a school she has since decided she does not like.</p>
<p>We had no counseling from our GC. Thank God for CC, my own research skills and people like SteveMA who have a wealth of knowledge that they share or both my kids would have been steered towards the state flagships only. Like a poster above said, there are many, many, choices between Harvard and community colleges. The real trick is figuring which is best for your kiddo.</p>
<p>“They can make a 1060 and get all A’s because grade inflation is rampant. Also, course labels can be meaningless. Just because a course is billed as honors, AP, etc., doesn’t mean it’s actually taught at a high level or that expectations for students are high.”</p>
<p>EXACTLY - This is one of my fears. What does that A in that AP class mean? Maybe not much at all, especially if you don’t have a decent test score to go with it.</p>
<p>SteveMA - I completely agree. Your high school is what I would call truly competitive. And yes, I would much rather have a 3.7 unweighted and a high SAT/ACT score.</p>
<p>@alexisss - I don’t know any reasonable person who considers the SAT/ACT to define intelligence. Rather, standardized tests have considerable research that demonstrate they are valuable predictors of success in higher education. There is a significant difference between these two concepts.</p>
<p>Adcoms can fairly assess one’s scientific knowledge from one’s transcript. They use standardized tests, such as the ACT Science subsection, to assess the ability to think critically as related to scientific material, including the ability to quickly process the information. This is a crucial skill considering the tremendous volume of material anticipated in an undergraduate eduction.</p>
<p>Ordinarylives - true. And we say the same thing in hiring…you never really know what you’ve got until you’ve got it! </p>
<p>But you have to have some kind of measuring stick. It’s complicated. You have to have someone doing the evaluation/analysis that is really good at looking at the whole picture - but even then, you’re only guessing until the pudding’s done.</p>
<p>Wait a minute rmldad, that research shows that hs GPA has a stronger correlation of success in higher Ed than the standardized tests. If one were to use a single measure, go with grades, which give you a four year (as oppose to 4hour) picture of a student.</p>
<p>It would be revealing to students and parents to see how each high school’s grades in AP courses correspond to scores on the AP tests (for non-AP courses, scores on SAT subject tests). Yes, on an individual basis, such correspondences may not be too revealing due to individual variation (“good” or “bad” at taking tests), but over a school student population, that may be more revealing.</p>
<p>(Of course, the only reason that standardized tests exist is because high school courses and grades are not consistent with each other, unlike in some other countries where high school grades are considered comparable between different high schools.)</p>