Competitive Scholarships at top Physics/Math schools

Paying for College
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Need ideas, please, for universities with excellent Physics, Math & Econ programs that also award merit aid. My son is leaning to physics but wants options at a school with great reputation in all three.

He’s leaning against LAC, since he expects to have a lot of AP credit and wants depth of grad level courses available. Despite our efforts to broaden his search, he places a lot of value on USNews and NRC grad school rankings. So, colleges like Richmond, Wash&Lee and Davidson may not be seriously considered, despite having good merit aid. Similar for Grinnell and Macalester, but he heard good things from a friend about Grinnell and Macalester was easy to add to our trip to Minnesota-TC. Vanderbilt, Emory, Rice and USC are great schools often mentioned here with good merit aid, but he’s mostly dismissed them as not being rated highly enough in his areas of interest. Yes, I’ve explained that grad rankings are no indication of quality of education at the undergraduate level, but he’s very rational and objective, so it is what it is.

Maybe Michigan, Texas and Maryland, though I’ve heard the bigger scholarships are extremely hard for OOS.

Any other schools I should put on his radar?

We’re also seeking tips for websites and resources on 3rd party scholarships in general, or specific to math/physics/economics.

Thanks, and apologies for the wall of text.

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How about University of Pittsburgh. Apply early for the best merit aid chances.

And really, Pitt is not any more expensive than those OOS Big Ten Schools.

Lots of info in this link:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1678964-links-to-popular-threads-on-scholarships-and-lower-cost-colleges.html#latest

Just check each college to see what is still available at the schools. Things may have changed.

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You would really let a teenager decide to take on $100K in debt?

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Then it’s time to have a very serious talk with him about (a) the long term implications of that kind of debt and (b) the trade-off between rank and merit aid. Yes, his stat’s are wonderful - but so are the stat’s of all the kids at those tippy-top schools, so why would those schools need to pay him to attend? It’s simple logic, so if he’s “rational and objective,” he should understand.

To figure out what that amount of debt will actually mean (in dollars and years), he can look here:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

There are plenty of good schools out there that would offer your son very generous merit aid, but if he’s decided he’s too good for those schools . . . well, you can tell him there’s at least one parent out here who thinks he’s anything but rational and objective!

P.S. If you’re in-state for UIUC, that’s an excellent choice!

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URM?

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That much debt will require parent loans or parent-cosigned student loans. This is generally a bad idea, especially when you have more kids to fund college for. Best to keep the debt to federal direct loans ($5,500 first year, up to $7,500 later years) or less.

Here is a list of (often highly) competitive large merit scholarships:
http://competitivefulltuition.yolasite.com/
If he has National Merit status:
http://nmfscholarships.yolasite.com/

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Thanks for the tip on direct loan limits. This will definitely impact his decision, assuming he is even accepted to one of those premier schools where he would not receive any merit aid. Of course we will encourage him not to take on any debt and will pay as much as possible keeping our other children and retirement and other considerations in mind. We also recognize that a school like Princeton opens doors later than Illinois or Wisconsin might not. But that’s the point of this thread. Am I missing a school rated highly in these areas that may offer merit aid. He has almost a year to think about debt. vs. prestige and doesn’t even know what options he will have yet in terms of being accepted or scholarships. Right now, I just want to make sure he has another one or two schools to add to his list of those where he may apply and possibly receive merit aid.

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Tons of schools offer merit aid. Tons of schools have physics and math majors.

He has already limited his choices by saying what he doesn’t like.

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Case? That would be a parent pick if this were my kid…

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You continue to describe this as his decision, and not yours. It is up to you, and not your son, to decide how much you are willing to spend on college, and whether you are willing to cosign loans for any amount in excess of what you can afford.

If, as your posts suggest, you can afford any of these schools, including “one of those premier schools where he would not receive any merit aid,” then perhaps you would get more useful responses if you post in the [College Search and Selection](College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums) forum. What you’re looking for, ultimately, are the best programs in your son’s areas of interest. Once you’ve identified those, it should be pretty easy for you to do some research yourself to find out which offer merit aid.

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Of course it’s ultimately his decision on where to attend. We will set the parameters of how much we will be willing or able to pay. And no, I didn’t suggest we can afford any of these schools. I did say we can afford to pay most Big10 school rates. Anything above that will be loans or scholarships, which was the point of this thread. And as I also said in the first post, I have done a lot of research here and elsewhere in recent months. I assumed this was the correct forum to ask for a few more ideas for schools that might fit his criteria and may offer merit scholarships. I think he’s done a fine job finding schools that interest him. I’m trying to help him find a few more that may also provide a debt-free undergraduate education and meet his other criteria as well. Perhaps some ideas of those I may have missed in how I searched.

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Have you looked at Rice?

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Yes- I’m suggesting he apply to one or more of WashU, Rice, Emory, Vanderbilt or USC. I think WashU is likely since he’s visited and has legacy there. He’s mentioned Vanderbilt and also seems to be on their weekly mailing list lol. Case also came up on my list so perhaps he will consider applying there as well, as they also send him near daily emails. A lot of these schools I think he has mostly ruled out since he feels our state school UIUC has better ratings, at least in Physics, and would likely be less expensive unless he gets a full scholarship or close to it. I can’t completely disagree with him on that, but he might get a full tuition offer at one of these great schools that would be difficult to turn down. And who knows what will happen to UIUC tuition with Illinois’ financial issues.

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What doors besides management consulting and Wall Street were you thinking of?

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Jobs. Grad schools. You name it. From alumni referrals to how it looks on a resume. I went to UIUC. Great engineering school. But I know it doesn’t have the same prestige or even long term earnings outlook overall as a Princeton, MIT or Stanford. I don’t know that he’d choose to attend one of those schools and incur debt even if he is accepted, but I’d like him to have the options to consider. My opinion is to take the best value of any of the fine schools he is considering for undergrad, and then look for prestige and top ratings if he goes to grad school, which of course is what I hope he chooses to do.

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Those three schools do not offer merit scholarships. Could you afford to pay the costs of those schools, without parent loans and with only federal direct loans for him, and not compromise funding for your other kids or your retirement? If not, then it would be best not to encourage him to aim there, because it could lead to a big let-down if he gets admitted and cannot go because it is too expensive.

In any case, the earnings advantages may be due to management consulting and Wall Street recruiting there. If that is not where he wants to go, such advantages may not be relevant for him. UIUC, Wisconsin, and others are highly regarded in math, physics, and economics, so going on to PhD study after earning a bachelor’s degree at such a school should not be limited by the school name. However, they may be somewhat more “economy class” in the undergraduate experience than the “luxury class” experience that the most well endowed private universities may offer.

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I agree, but I know that’s not always how it works. All else equal, if someone wants to get into a Physics grad school like Harvard or equivalent, they’re going to take someone from Princeton or Stanford before someone from Minnesota or Wisconsin. Sure, there are exceptions and of course, not all else may be equal. He might get a better education at a smaller school with smaller class sizes and more accessible professors than at a big state school, for example. Or he may get much better grades at one than another. But none of this really matters, because I’m not looking for more names like Princeton that offer no merit aid. I’m hoping to find a couple I may have overlooked that will be more affordable with the possibility of merit aid, but still very close to those premier schools. Perhaps I’ve found them all at this point, which is possible.

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Proof please for this generalization.

You do know that there are plenty of elite school grad students who didn’t go to elite undergrad schools, right?

A lot depends on the depth of the research done in undergrad AND sometimes on who the research was done with…and where it was published.

You know…I always say…let the kid pick the college where he will be happy for four years. I mean really, he could switch his major to history, or drama while in college.

You (and maybe he) are trying to lock him into a future as far away as grad school when he hasn’t even finished high school. Lots could change in the years to come…lots.

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doubling down on @ucbalumnus’ post. Prospects for grad school in math, physics or econ are not even slightly compromised by schools like Michigan or your own alma mater (which, btw, is in the top 10 ranked physics programs on both USNWR & NRC).

Your son has exceptional grades and scores, and is no doubt something of a star in his secondary school- and it would be only human for him to want a name that is as shiny as his record. If he is being ‘rational and objective’ by looking at rankings, then his list is probably something like this:

First choice: MIT, Harvard, Princeton: all are in the top 5 for physics on USNWR, NRC, QS and Shanghai rankings
=> but, from your post, all would require him to take out $100K in loans (including $80K cosigned by you)

Second choice: Caltech, UCB, Chicago and UCSB, as all are in the top 10 of all four lists and Stanford, which is in the top 5 on two of the lists, top 10 in one and top 20 in one.
=> but, again, same loan issue

Third choice: UIUC, Cornell and Columbia, as all are in the top 10 on two of the lists and top 20 on two.
=> if you are in-state for UIUC: bingo; the other two same loan issue

Fourth choice: Yale, UMdCP, UMi:: top 15 on 2 lists, top 20 on 2
=>You said that you can afford Big10 schools, so that should cover Michigan; guessing UMd as well

Other colleges that show up at least once in the top 20 that look as though they could be within your financial parameters:

Penn State (top 10 on NRC, top 20 Shanghai)
Boston U (top 10 NRC, top 20 QS)
Stony Brook (top 15 NRC)
JHU (top 20 NRC & USNWR, top 15 Shanghai)
CMU (top 20 NRC & QS))
URochester (top 20 NRC)
Duke (top 20 QS)
UC Boulder (top 20 USNWR, top 10 Shanghai)
UWi (top 20 USNWR), top 15 Shanghai)
UAz (top 15 Shanghai)
UWa (top 20 Shangai)

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Physics and Econ are completely different animals. And why have you already decided that you want your son to go to grad school (which is what you’ve stated). What if he falls in love with tax policy as an econ major and gets a great job at Brookings with just a BA? Or majors in math and gets a job as a quant at DE Shaw with a six figure income right out of the box?

Your son doesn’t need to have his entire academic program sketched out right now. I think it would be helpful for him to clarify what he’s looking for apart from having solid departments in these three areas of study. And then you can cut the list looking for merit aid.