Complicated asset situation

Paying for College
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Ok, sorry. This whole process is starting to get to me. It seems like everyone (colleagues, friends, family, etc.) has something to throw at us. Much of what we hear is other parents bragging about what superstars their kids are and how they got into such and such places ( a la “Tufts was our DD’s safety school”). </p>

<p>Schools keep getting added to the potential list. We’ve visited a dozen places. Some that I get hopeful about, DS turns up his nose (like McMaster). Not to mention he wants to do something we don’t even agree with. I have to go to battle every day to get SAT study in. </p>

<p>The in-laws are clawing at the gate, and we have to take a week-long cruise with 18 of them in the end of June, where I’m sure they will all chime in with their 2 cents, down to the last 3 year old. </p>

<p>DH is freaking about the costs, but he ALWAYS freaks about the costs of things. Then he goes back to work and somehow things get paid for. Meanwhile, I have to finish a PhD thesis and defense by August and try to get some sort of employment full or part time, or our AGI is going to drop a bit. </p>

<p>It’s just overwhelming at the moment, though.</p>

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<p>*Just because we can’t afford the whole of what our EFC is expected to be doesn’t mean that we can’t afford anything, so I’m sure we will come up with something workable. *</p>

<p>You will find something workable if you employ a carefully thought out strategy that includes schools that will give him big merit for his stats. You won’t likely find something workable if he only applies to schools where his stats fall within that posted mid range. Yes, he might get admitted, but you’ll be expected to pay the full freight of $50k+ per year. </p>

<p>For instance…Marist…Middle 50% of First-Year Students</p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 520 - 620<br>
SAT Math: 540 - 640<br>
SAT Writing: 530 - 640 </p>

<p>The above range represents the students who are BELOW the top 25% at the school. To be a good contender for good merit, the M+CR scores need to be well above 1260.</p>

<p>He’d get accepted with a 1250 M+CR, but he wouldn’t likely get enough merit to bring down the cost to whatever it is you’ll feel comfortable paying. Marist has a cost of attendance of about $42k per year.</p>

<p>University of Rochester - Middle 50% of First-Year Students</p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 590 - 690<br>
SAT Math: 640 - 720<br>
SAT Writing: 590 - 690</p>

<p>As you can see, your son fits in the mid 50 range, so he’d likely be accepted, but he’s not in the upper 25% (which would have M+CR scores above 1410) where he might get merit. That’s what I was trying to explain earlier. To get merit money at schools that give merit scholarships, you have to be in that upper quartile. BTW…UR doesn’t give merit to all kids who are in the upper quartile. Many get nothing.</p>

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<p>*It seems like everyone (colleagues, friends, family, etc.) has something to throw at us. Much of what we hear is other parents bragging about what superstars their kids are and how they got into such and such places ( a la “Tufts was our DD’s safety school”).</p>

<p>The in-laws are clawing at the gate, and we have to take a week-long cruise with 18 of them in the end of June, where I’m sure they will all chime in with their 2 cents, down to the last 3 year old.
*</p>

<p>Ok…I get where you’re coming from. :slight_smile: Yes, relatives, neighbors, and parents of classmates will have opinions…but they won’t be paying your college bills, so let their words go in one ear and out the other. :)</p>

<p>You and your H need to decide how much you can pay each year. You subtract that figure from the cost of tuition, room, board, books. That resulting number will be about your targeted merit amount. Right? You can also include a contribution from your son…maybe a part-time job and a small student loan to cover his books, various fees, and incidentals.</p>

<p>I know where you’re coming from. We also have a very high EFC because of rentals. Our boys want to go to professional school (med school and law/or grad school). We knew we had to cut our undergrad costs WAY down so that we could help them with their professional school costs (so they wouldn’t be drowning in debt). </p>

<p>They both go to a mid-tier school (state flagship) on big scholarships. Our out of pocket costs for BOTH kids is about $10k per year. Yes, $10k total! (less than what we paid at their Catholic high school!) So, my point is that with carefully chosen schools, you can essentially reduce your EFC by choosing schools that will give him BIG merit. </p>

<p>*
Schools keep getting added to the potential list. We’ve visited a dozen places. Some that I get hopeful about, DS turns up his nose (like McMaster). Not to mention he wants to do something we don’t even agree with. I have to go to battle every day to get SAT study in.*</p>

<p>What is the issue? Are you concerned about the religious studies major? Are you concerned about future job prospects? If so, you could encourage either a double major or perhaps a minor in religious studies.</p>

<p>Le Moyne (Jesuit)</p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 490 - 580<br>
SAT Math: 510 - 610</p>

<p>See…there your son would be in the upper 25%. If Le Moyne gives generous merit scholarships, then your son would be a strong contender. <a href=“Joseph Mullins - Le Moyne College Department of Chemistry”>Joseph Mullins - Le Moyne College Department of Chemistry;

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<p>TatinG…you are wrong. The ability to sell the property might be affected by the joint ownership. AND this OP should ONLY list their share of the property (1/2 if that is what it is). BUT the amount of equity is NOT based on whether you can or are willing to sell…it’s NOT.</p>

<p>This is true even for properties held in trust. I know…I’ve researched this extensively. Even IF the others in the trust are required to agree to sell…and won’t…the other holder would STILL have to declare THEIR VALUE of the property as an ASSET on the FAFSA and Profile. Those are the rules.</p>

<p>And the property DOES have a fair market value and that is what is used. </p>

<p>Just because the other owner doesn’t want to or can’t sell this rental property…does NOT reduce it’s value to NOTHING. This is inaccurate information which will not be able to be supported with documentation for a zero value if this person puts this on the finaid application forms this way.</p>

<p>Now…if they are underwater on their mortgage…that is another story…but the rental income would still count as income.</p>

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<p>No. I don’t think I ever said the value was nothing. But the value in my opinion of OP’s portion is also not half of the FMV determined by the comps in the area. </p>

<p>Let’s say you could sell the entire house for 500,000. That does not mean OP could find a buyer of her share in the ownership for 250,000. How many people would want to own a share of a rental house that could not be liquidated without another owner’s approval? That considerably reduces the value of OP’s fractional share of ownership. She might be able to find a buyer who would pay something for that half,. Some buyers would calculate the rental income and determine that they wanted a 5% return on the investment and would pay an amount that would make the rental income a 5% return. </p>

<p>And of course the rental income is income. </p>

<p>It is a complicated situation and the OP should seek out some professional advice on how to handle it.</p>

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<p>sylvan you’ve got a lot being thrown at you, especially with the prospect of your weeklong cruise! This thread might be useful to you:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/926354-just-smile-nod-smile-nod.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/926354-just-smile-nod-smile-nod.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>TatinG, rental property valuation is primarily determined by gross rent multipliers, location, and condition. There are formulas to calculate this, and these formulas do not take into account the owners’ willingness to sell. These are the formulas that Financial Aid officers will expect to be used if/when the financial aid application is audited. In the same way that a financial aid offer will (typically) ignore the relative willingness of a parent or non-custodial parent to pay for college, the same offer will (typically) ignore the relative willingness of a property owner to sell investment property.</p>

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<p>The financial aid forms also don’t take into consideration if you WANT or CAN sell…it’s only the equity value. </p>

<p>But again I say…good that the OP is looking into this financial situation NOW rather than waiting until the last minute. There are colleges that will both meet the curriculum AND finances they wish to consider. </p>

<p>And because this OP is looking early, they are more aware of how financial aid is determined in the need based realm.</p>

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<p>*But again I say…good that the OP is looking into this financial situation NOW rather than waiting until the last minute. There are colleges that will both meet the curriculum AND finances they wish to consider. *</p>

<p>Exactly! Too many people assume that their EFC is going to be low and proceed to apply to schools that won’t work for them with a high EFC. Then, in the spring of senior year, their FA packages are empty or near empty and they can’t afford their schools. There’s no “do-over.”</p>

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<p>DS is considering a vocation to the priesthood. I have mixed feelings about this, but that isn’t particularly relevant (and it certainly generates interesting responses from people). For those who don’t know about the RC Church, there are 2 types of priests - diocesan and religious orders. Our diocese has a program where the candidate can live at St. Mark’s Seminary (actually called a “Minor Seminary”) in Erie, PA, and attend college at Gannon University. After, they go to the diocesan seminary in East Aurora for another 4-5 years. </p>

<p>Issue 1: The minor seminary apparently has all kinds of rules and regs. They can’t date girls, they have curfews, etc. We see this as an attempt by the church to get as much control over them asap. We think he should be making his own day to day decisions on coming and going, whether he wants to go home or to see friends on breaks, date girls, etc. We would like to see him have a more traditional college experience.</p>

<p>Issue 2: DS liked Gannon ok, but to me it has utterly NO sense of place, and is cobbled together from random buildings in the downtown of a grubby, depressed city. (Don’t mean to offend any Erie/Gannon fans here, Buffalo can be pretty grubby and depressed too, so I know how it is.) On the plus side, the facilities are reasonably nice inside.</p>

<p>Issue 3: Many students change their majors during college, and I’m sure many who are considering priesthood reconsider along the way. I am not naive enough to believe that, once in the minor seminary, there isn’t massive pressure to stay there. </p>

<p>Issue 4: If he DOES decide to change majors, we would like him to be somewhere with many other options so hopefully he wouldn’t have to transfer (possible but not ideal case). He is pretty good with science type stuff, and both parents are engineers, so an engineering major isn’t out of the question. For most of the places currently on the list a switch to engineering would mean a transfer. That isn’t ruling places out, but it is a background consideration.</p>

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<p>sylvan8798, Check out Mount St. Mary’s. Your S is over their 75th %tile and would be in line for merit $$ there (esp. if he can pull up his SAT/ACT score a little bit), and there is a seminary. A guy I knew in HS went there for seminary and was very happy. COA ~$40k and they offer merit $$.
[Admissions</a> and Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.msmary.edu/admissions/index.html]Admissions”>Admissions | Mount St. Mary's University)</p>

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<p>Look at the financial aid sites for schools like Baylor in TX or Whitworth in WA, both give around $12-15k annually off the tuition and have about $35-40k (rather than the frequently seen $50k+) as COA. This brings the OOP amount down to the low $20k</p>

<p>There are probably similar schools near you that offer merit aid based on SAT and where something above 1800 will get you a serious tuition discount. There is a thread somewhere with those listed.</p>

<p>Here’s that thread:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>It looks like a nice place, we will look into it more. I have started a list of questions for the vocations director, one of which will be “does our diocese sponsor candidates to other seminaries besides the one here.” Can you give me some idea how long ago he was there?</p>

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<p>I’m not a big fan of minor seminaries for the reasons that you described. Men need to date, etc, before they decide whether they have a vocation to the priesthood. </p>

<p>However, diocesan priests do not have to major in any particular major for a bishop to accept them to the major seminary. The priests that have been recently ordained in our diocese had undergrad majors ranging from accounting to history to engineering. Two had professional degrees - one in medicine and one an attorney.</p>

<p>While in major seminary they study theology and religious studies, so that’s not necessary as an undergrad. </p>

<p>BTW…what seminaries does your diocese use? Ours uses several, including Mount St. Mary’s in Emmitsburg, Maryland, but if your bishop doesn’t use that one, then…</p>

<p>If engineering is a possibility, will he be applying to SUNY-Bing?</p>

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<p>The Major Seminary wants them to have a certain background. If they come in without the background, then they have to take extra time to get the background.</p>

<p>Here is a clip from the Mount St. Mary’s Seminary website regarding admission to the Major Seminary, which seems to be typical: </p>

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<p>Our diocese has Christ the King Seminary, so I’m not sure if they sponsor candidates to others or not. DS likes CKS ok, but it IS very small compared to some of the other ones.</p>

<p>SUNY Binghampton doesn’t have religious studies/theology. I think there is a general prejudice against this as a major in the New York state schools (public money for religion?). The schools that do have something have rather weak minors (even Geneseo) or are primarily focused on eastern studies or Judaism.</p>

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<p>Now that I see his religious studies interest is more than simply a whim, I’d agree that the SUNY’s may not be a great fit. Idk if there’s a prejudice against this type of major, perhaps it’s more that they tend to offer it more from a broader, anthropological perspective. Chrisitanity, and certainly Catholicism, isn’t favored in any way by the SUNY’s as far as I can see and some of them, like UB, seem to have such a huge contingent of non-Christian students that I’m sure that influences their offerings as well . Unfortunately, very few publics have the budget these days to support programs that don’t generate sufficient student interest.</p>

<p>Maybe a large Catholic school, such as Boston or Notre Dame, would offer both the focused major and the access/exposure to other fields of study?</p>

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<p>TatinG: You are looking at it from an accounting perspective. If you were doing accounts for a large company, and the company had property where they could not sell it for full value (for whatever reason), they could use an fair market value (FMV) approach for their books. Neither FAFSA nor CSS are that sophisticated, they expect most people will take 50% of the market value (assuming 50% share), not the fair market value, which may be lower in this case </p>

<p>I am sure if the OP was to get a professional accountant to apprise what 50% would be worth, assuming that the brother in law would not be a buyer, they could justify a lower value. However, I am not sure that would beneficial as the cost of such an appraisal would be enormous and benefits marginal. The amount of documentation would be immense, they would have to have proof that the brother in law would not buy it and that any other buyer would pay less than market value etc. Can be done but the cost of such a report would be a few thousand dollars, which could be better spent on tuition. </p>

<p>I have seen these types of analysis in a large organization where the value of the property in question was over $100 million and there was one part owner who was not willing to part with their share and that asset could not be sold. Hence the company felt that if they had to sell their portion, they would have to discount it considerably and the FMV was less than the value on their books. This situation does not call for such approaches.</p>

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<p>Mt Holyoke counted our home equity in our FA calculation. They don’t care that even if we sold it, we couldn’t buy anything else on Long Island for less. They just look at home equity being X and available to borrow against.</p>

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<p>*The Major Seminary wants them to have a certain background. If they come in without the background, then they have to take extra time to get the background.</p>

<p>Here is a clip from the Mount St. Mary’s Seminary website regarding admission to the Major Seminary, which seems to be typical:</p>

<p>Quote:
Applicants for the seminary ordination program must have:

  • sponsorship from a bishop or religious community
  • a bachelor’s degree in Arts or Sciences from an accredited college, or its equivalent
  • thirty (30) semester credit hours of undergraduate philosophy, or its equivalent
  • twelve (12) of theology, or its equivalent *</p>

<p>I wonder how that all works. A young priest that I know who went to St. Mary’s went in with no theology/philosophy (he was a CPA), but it did take him longer to get thru St. Marys. So, it’s likely that he had to spend a year getting those requirements in (on the bishop’s dime), before he was “officially” in the seminary. </p>

<p>But, your son could either do a double major or do a big minor to knock out some of those req’ts while also preparing himself for a profession if he changes his mind about the priesthood. </p>

<p>I don’t know how your bishop is, but our bishop actually likes having priests with various undergrad degrees. He likes it when they have business degrees or other degrees that he feels helps them with parish management.</p>

<p>If the priesthood is on the horizon, then I doubt you’d want your son taking on any student loans. So, again a careful strategy of choosing some Catholic schools that would give him good merit. Maybe Seton Hall.</p>

<p>Another strategy could be… take some summer courses at a cc to knock out the general ed courses & philosophy courses, so he’d have “space” during the school year to accommodate a second major or a heavy minor. Frankly, I think a heavy minor would be preferable because then he could choose his classes.</p>

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<p>Mazewanderer:</p>

<p>Just shows what a mess co-ownership of property can be. </p>

<p>One also wonders why FAFSA can’t be structured more like what the IRS would value the property for estate tax purposes. But then you can’t count on the government to do things that make sense.</p>