<p>As our son is finalizing his list of schools to which he will apply, one of the most challenging issues we've faced is the dizzying amount of research into determining the best fit due to differences in musical styles and influences at each school. Some favor classical or jazz, lyrical or atonal, traditional or contemporary. Some are conservatories and others are more traditional schools. Some offer a BM and others a BA. As a non-musical parent, I would find a compiled list detailing the strengths of each program to be beneficial. Does one already exist? If not, perhaps we can join forces and make this easier for the next group of future composers.</p>
<p>There is no such list, and it wouldn’t do much good anyway, as the faculties at the programs can change, and with them the aesthetic direction. There are some institutional biases, such as Curtis leans tonal, Oberlin modernist, Berklee contemporary/jazz etc. but even those stereotypes can be misleading.</p>
<p>I would check out the curriculum - see what the music classes beyond composition are offering to try to get a feel for the scope of the department. Also look in the course catalog at the actual requirements for graduation in composition - what courses are required for the degree? This varies drastically from program to program. For instance, where my son studies composition few courses except private lessons are mandated at all - a basic theory sequence, a few music history courses - that’s all. Another program will be the complete opposite with almost the entire four years laid out in advance with a very strict progression. I actually think the BA in music at my son’s college has more specific requirements than the BM in the conservatory.</p>
<p>Look at the live concerts and what music is programmed on them. Are there ensembles in residence? What sort of visiting composers, ensembles come to the program? Are there master classes? Is there a regular composers’ workshop?</p>
<p>And, very important, find out what the opportunities are for him to get his music played. Is it guaranteed, or is it competitive? For instance, often a school will say there are opportunities to have pieces played by an orchestra - but neglect to mention it’s a competition for the one slot per year with grad students, as well. Or that a professor has to choose the student’s piece for a performance.</p>
<p>If I remember correctly your son is looking for a lot of musical freedom in a program. My recommendation is to make sure the program allows him to take courses in jazz, electronic, world music and classical. Both in music history/theory, and in performance.</p>
<p>Then, on top of all that, you want to think about what his peers will be like. Will they also be interested in the same style/range of music as he? Will he have like-minded peers to bounce ideas off and to perform with? And, will they have the musical chops to perform his music?</p>
<p>It sounds like your son already has a list, or part of one. He preferred the LA area. Is that still true? Maybe he is almost all set.</p>
<p>I remember he wants to be able to explore lots of different genres. There is a lot of cross-pollination going on. My daughter is in a classical undergrad music major but has taken electroacoustic composition (based on visual inspiration, actually), and will also take jazz theory. Many schools have classes in rock, in the major, right next to harmony and counterpoint in the catalog. Or scoring for film. At the undergrad level, I think many programs will be great for your son. The undergrad major is foundational and similar in many schools, with theory, ear training and history. It doesn’t pin them down in terms of what they do on their own, or in the future. They have many years ahead of them: Elliot Carter is over 100 now…</p>
<p>The ability to compose according to one’s own “voice” is important, but it is also realistic to recognize that students this age will run into a lot of influences. Nevertheless, a kid with a strong compositional sense of self can thrive in many places. We noted that some schools had a great diversity among student pieces- a good sign. </p>
<p>Also want to say that students often make things happen regardless of where they actually go. They may start an orchestra themselves, or a composers’ collective, or get funding for musicians to play student pieces. Or someone like your son may still do a lot outside of school, and still work with his mentor. And many music majors can compose as part of independent study at some point. Things are flexible and the choice does not have to be absolutely flawless!</p>
<p>If he has a list, it might be the time to just go ahead and apply, and leave some of the more detailed investigations for later. I think 4-6 schools is good. Spirit Manager and others know the California music schools and, added to those your son already was interested in, maybe that is enough.</p>
<p>He can apply to both conservatory and college, to keep his options open, if he so chooses.</p>
<p>I and others mentioned some East Coast colleges that might fit, but I don’t know that much about CA schools. Here in the East, Wesleyan, Vassar, Sarah Lawrence, Bennington, Clark and NYU were ones I thought of along with conservatories like Berklee, NEC (they have jazz studies), Hartt, Ithaca, Manhattan, Boston Conservatory maybe, and Bard for either conservatory or college. Midwest colleges: Macalaster, Carleton, Kenyon, Grinnell, Oberlin, Lawrence (the latter two of course also have a conservatory). Conservatories like CIM, CCM.</p>
<p>But it sounds like he wants to be near LA, so that means he probably has a good list going for that…</p>
<p>If he wants to be in a school which also has a dynamic film department for possible contacts with incipient filmmakers look outside the obvious USC/NYU at Northwestern, Michigan, Wesleyan, Florida State U, Oberlin, and Bard College - they all have significant film programs and strong music departments or schools of music. And, of course, Chapman in Southern California.</p>
<p>SUNY Purchase has a great conservatory of music, and of dance, and a film school. Very close to NYC. Might be another possibility.</p>
<p>Agreeing with SM: no list exists, and doesn’t do much good anyway.</p>
<p>One thing you guys ought to definitely do, is to investigate the faculty composers at all the schools given above. Most have personal websites with audio samples. Get acquainted with their “voices” and see who are interesting to your son. I would consider this the most important step when picking a school for a composition student.</p>
<p>Also, if the son has favorite composers, he can find out where they teach. Not all composers teach, of course, but many do.</p>
<p>Also, letting us know here on CC about the son’s favorite composers, or telling us a little more about his music, might help.</p>
<p>I agree completely that one of the very first things to do is to research the musical style & lineage of the professors - but I’ve also found that sometimes what makes a good teacher has nothing to do with the kind of music they write for themselves - if they’re open to nurturing the individual voice of the student. On the other hand, if they have ingrained prejudices against a certain school/style of music, and that’s the direction the student might be most interested in - then you’ve got a problem.</p>
<p>I highly recommend a meeting with the prospective composition professors before any decisions - either before or after applying - and not just a meet and greet, or interview - to actually look at and talk about the student’s compositions, if it’s at all possible. The student may feel comfortable with a professor as a person, or even like their music, but until they hear them talk about the student’s own music they may not have an accurate sense of what it would be like to work with that teacher. (And, even then, it’s just an educated guess!)</p>
<p>“but I’ve also found that sometimes what makes a good teacher has nothing to do with the kind of music they write for themselves”</p>
<p>Of course, that is true. However, often what kind of music the teachers write will be the kind of music that will surround the student during his/her time at the school. It will be the type s/he gets the most exposure to. It is an important consideration nonetheless.</p>
<p>My daughter didn’t meet with any teachers until the interviews that were part of the audition, and I guess she felt the interviews were mutual: they were an opportunity to check the school and faculty out, as well.</p>
<p>She did just the regular tour at East Coast schools, before choosing which school to apply to, but for anything in the Mid-West, she didn’t visit until the audition, due to expense of travel.</p>
<p>Students are more than welcome to visit class, meet with professors, or take sample lessons, once admitted. At that point, they are trying to convince you, not the other way around.</p>
<p>I know that some do these things before applying, but I think it can work out fine if you wait. Just trying to help make things a little chill in this stressful time. </p>
<p>Your son can ballpark choices, for, say, 4-6 schools, and then things will become clearer as he visits and/or goes through the audition. He may also change during this last year of high school, in his musical interests and personally: so having a few different options isn’t a bad idea. </p>
<p>The question of teacher influence is an interesting one. I think the teaching style may be more important than the teacher’s own compositional style, and agree that the biggest priority for the student is freedom to find his or her “voice.” However, there are influences that get through in subtle ways, sort of by osmosis. And some teachers work very much on technical details on paper, while others teach more to the overall vision of a piece. Some teachers provide strong guidance, others are more laid back and leave the student in charge. Some schools have composers rotate teachers, others don’t.</p>
<p>You really cannot make perfect choices in advance. There is such a thing as too much research, which confuses without clarifying. I know I can be guilty of this. Your son can figure out some basic criteria (including location, size, jazz or classical) and go from there. He can apply to both BA and BM programs and decide later. He has a great future ahead!</p>
<p>Thank you for your thoughts, everyone. I had hoped that this thread would be less about my son and more about school programs. As a professional working in the educational field to promote a private school, I am well-acquainted with the difference between what my competitors market and what they actually provide. Though programs shift and change over time, especially as new professors are brought in and others leave, I am still of the opinion that it’s likely that there is a general focus within a program that cannot be seen on a website, but rather only experienced within the program itself. Listening to professor’s own music is a great start, but as SpiritManager pointed out, sometimes what they perform themselves is different than how they teach their classes. A website is unlikely to tell you that, but a student within a program likely can. And, I will guarantee that these schools also know the characteristics of their programs and how it compares to that of their competitors, even if it doesn’t make it onto a website or into a professor’s music.</p>
<p>Perhaps it’s because I’m so new to composition research and have a LOT to learn in a very short amount of time, or perhaps it’s because of my professional experience in educational marketing, but it appears that the information I seek isn’t readily available. I was hoping to hear personal experiences of the styles of music your students are learning in their program and how it has challenged his/her abilities compared with what they started with before entering a program. He or she may have visited a campus and decided that the focus was too dissimilar to his/her style, but even though inappropriate for him/her may well be the perfect choice for another reader here. One student may want a LAC to explore additional areas of study, while another might prefer to be in a program with intense musical studies. I had hoped that such information would benefit the CC community as a whole, rather than only my son.</p>
<p>For those of us on CC short on information, short on time, or short on the money to visit each program, would such information be beneficial or would it be impossible to compile such information?</p>
<p>As for my son, I can either start another thread or answer by PM. :)</p>
<p>OC, I understand your desire to attempt to quantify styles at given institutions, but let me give you an example of something my son told me that you might wish to consider when your son is looking at schools.</p>
<p>My son has both a jazz and classical background, but an interest in electroacoustic and electronic production. He is part composer, part performer, part technician. He would describe his composition style (today) as “classical minimalist” and the production aspect as “indie electronic flavor.”</p>
<p>When he was choosing production programs, he favored University of Michigan over two other well-known programs based in part on a department head whose reputation/experience/opus he admired. He also found that one of the other programs under consideration did not regard electroacoustic style composition as a valid line of study (note that this was a specific department that seemed to hold this attitude - the school itself actually has profs well known for ea style and a robust composition department). In the other top program, there was not sufficient depth in terms of composition, although that SOM also had a robust composition department.</p>
<p>So, fast forward to his senior year - no regrets whatsoever, but lots of change!</p>
<p>Two years ago, the department head he adored retired. Yet the SOM seemed to have made an effort to bring on similar faculty in terms of style. While he misses her, he’s very pleased with the new faculty members that have since joined his department.</p>
<p>The next year, he had a composition professor who was wholly traditional/classical in background, with particular personal experience in strings - pretty much his exact opposite.</p>
<p>It was actually one of his best classes ever, and resulted in his writing one of his most meaningful works, that opened up a whole new area for him.</p>
<p>Michigan often gets the rep of having a very “classical, traditional” composition department. However, when you take the sum of the faculty, you will simply NOT find this to be true. There are genuinely fab resources for every style of composer and producer there - and this cross-pollination of ideas and approaches is not only healthy – it’s a fabulous opportunity for students, IMHO.</p>
<p>If I were reviewing programs again, this time I’d be looking for the breadth rather than exact match or exact fit with respect to my son’s current relationship with his art. I think you CAN find this kind of breadth in style at many, if not most, of the top music schools.</p>
<p>One thing that will help your son get the “real” feel for the school is to sit in on studios/classes, if allowed. My son was fortunate in that Michigan was very open on having him do so, despite the very small, intimate nature of the classes (eg. 8 people in the production sequence.) The second thing that really helped was simply talking to kids in the program who could give insight into their take on the school – which of course, is likely to be positive, but can also be telling in other ways.</p>
<p>A third way that will garner some insight to what I feel are frequently shifting “flavors” of programs is to arrange/request an interview with the department head at each shortlisted school. We did that and gleaned a lot. Yes, it’s time, travel and effort…but it’s also a pretty substantial investment ;)</p>
<p>“I was hoping to hear personal experiences of the styles of music your students are learning in their program and how it has challenged his/her abilities compared with what they started with before entering a program.”</p>
<p>I see what you are asking, and I totally understand. From the outside (even from the inside), the composition world is tricky and confusing. I think any good program will foster a growth artistically, and all of the established programs in composition have readings, ensembles, guest visitors, masterclasses, etc. to try out developing one’s voice.</p>
<p>However, I stand by what I said earlier. The strongest research you and your son can do, is still to get acquainted with other composers, find out what aesthetics he leans toward, and see where composers writing in that aesthetic teach. Others can help you do your research to an extent, by dropping names, etc., but for composers, the key word remains “aesthetic” and we can’t help your son with that. He’ll have to realize what his is himself, or if he is unsure, find a school with diversity and openness (although admittedly, most good schools for composition tend to have those qualities anyways, even if there are dominant aesthetics. Right, I’m not being very helpful, am I? haha.)</p>
<p>With that said, you do seem to want information on specific schools and teachers and cultures, and the characteristics of that school. I repeat what SpiritManager wrote:</p>
<p>“There is no such list, and it wouldn’t do much good anyway, as the faculties at the programs can change, and with them the aesthetic direction. There are some institutional biases, such as Curtis leans tonal, Oberlin modernist, Berklee contemporary/jazz etc. but even those stereotypes can be misleading.”</p>
<p>From the OP’s second post, you seem weary of going directly to the institution/teacher for information. While true, in your experience you might find all of schools’ websites to be rose-colored and often misleading. However, with composers…well, their music and recording can’t lie! It’s flat out presented to you; your son will like the music or will not.</p>
<p>And finally, to belabor the point further,</p>
<p>“Though programs shift and change over time, especially as new professors are brought in and others leave, I am still of the opinion that it’s likely that there is a general focus within a program that cannot be seen on a website, but rather only experienced within the program itself.”</p>
<p>IME, I do find professors’ aesthetics to be fairly accurate representations of a given school. Since music is a public and external thing, by listening to composers’ works, what you hear is often exactly what you get.</p>
<p>Since you do seem fairly determined to receive a “list of schools”, I will start you off (by going off what SpiritManager had said in the first reply):</p>
<p>True, Oberlin leans modernist and experimental. Curtis leans tonal and traditional; as do most conservatories (Juilliard, Eastman, NEC, Mannes) in general. Yale and Bard also lean conservative. Princeton tends to be postmodern, with lots of fusion. UCSD, Buffalo, Harvard tend to share an aesthetic (and faculty switching) with Oberlin, etc. Columbia and McGill are extremely Euro-centric. Big research universities with large music schools (Indiana, Michigan, Rice, USC, etc.) tend to have aesthetics that follow conservatory models. There are also some schools (especially on the west coast) that are highly experimental, but not in the postwar European Avant-garde sense, but in a more American-centric Cage/Feldman sense. These include CalArts and Mills on the West, but also schools like Wesleyan in the East. Note that some of these schools are definitely more undergraduate focused (Bard, Oberlin) and others are definitely more grad-focused (UCSD, Ivies).</p>
<p>Hope that gets you and your son started. Good luck and happy composing!</p>
<p>Thank you kmcmom13! That is exactly what I’m looking for. Particularly this paragraph:</p>
<p>“Michigan often gets the rep of having a very “classical, traditional” composition department. However, when you take the sum of the faculty, you will simply NOT find this to be true. There are genuinely fab resources for every style of composer and producer there - and this cross-pollination of ideas and approaches is not only healthy – it’s a fabulous opportunity for students, IMHO.”</p>
<p>You described the general perception of the program, then shared your son’s personal experience there and how it opened his eyes to new ideas and growth as a musician. What I am trying to get beyond are the differences between perception by either reputation or advertising, and into the meat of a program.</p>
<p>Perhaps I improperly phrased my initial post. My desire was to create a thread that did what you just did - explored a personal experience at an individual institution from the point of view of your specific student, not specifically directed toward my student or any other student here on CC. I was hoping for a resource for CC readers to scan through and find some measure of familiarity and/or opportunities to challenge initial perceptions that might help the CC readers to consider other options that they may not have otherwise explored. While I wholeheartedly believe that any one of these music programs has something to offer each student, narrowing the choices of where to apply is far easier with exposure to a variety of sources of information. Personal experiences are a great resource in that regard.</p>
<p>Great post above from EarlGR8 - but do note that the ‘leans conservative’ can cover a huge range. There is also a school of music I would call ‘academic.’ To which many these programs could be assigned.</p>
<p>As for Bard, where my son is in the conservatory - the three professors in the conservatory are all quite different, and then once one looks at the composers in the college - everything except European Modernism is pretty much covered. This was one reason I was comfortable with his choice - so he had different people & aesthetics to work with, if desired, but they were all tops in their field. And, if one professor left, I felt comfortable that another professor of equal caliber would be hired. </p>
<p>And, now in his fourth year he has studied with four different professors. Bard, however, unlike many conservatories, is light on things like Master Classes, visiting composers, seminars - the composers are pretty much left alone to compose - even a relative minimum of required music courses compared to a traditional conservatory. There are also not that many college sponsored opportunities for performance. But, my son dealt with that by establishing his own large chamber ensemble freshman year!</p>
<p>Thank you EarlG8 - </p>
<p>I think the confusion is that by bringing up my own research process into this thread, it appeared that I was looking for an answer for my son. That wasn’t my intention of this thread and I’ve already received a lot of great advice here, on other threads, and by PM. And, I am grateful for that!</p>
<p>What may be seen as resistance on my part is that I’m trying to steer this thread back to the general rather than the specific of my son. To date, CC has a number of ongoing discussions of various topics and many great replies from members sharing their experiences in specific programs. I, and likely other newbies on this board, have spent hours using the search function to research different schools and programs. I read on this board for about 6 months before joining and ultimately posting. I’m certain there are others who will do the same without ever posting a question, but will instead learn so much from the wonderful resources on this board. I just thought it might be useful for others to find a single thread where those in the initial phases of researching schools might use personal testimonies of CC readers to help them narrow their options. From there, they can further explore all those important things like listening to professor’s compositions, visiting schools, and eventually applying to those schools that appear to be the best fit for them.</p>
<p>I apologize for starting this thread down an unintended path. I hope this Newbie hasn’t confused you all. ;)</p>
<p>Excellent SpiritManager! This is the direction I was hoping to go with this thread. I’m so sorry I got us off track right away . . .</p>
<p>Now I’ll sit back and let you all create some great info for all the CC readers!</p>
<p>Great posts from everyone!</p>
<p>And great list from Earl, really enjoyed it. So did my daughter, after I sent it to her!</p>
<p>On the website, I think the list of courses, course descriptions, and degree requirements were really helpful, as was looking up the bios of faculty and listening to their work. (My daughter bought quite a few CD’s that year.) None of this is connected to marketing, really.</p>
<p>You really cannot get at the kind of absolute truth about programs that you are seeking, at least, I don’t think you can. In the end, I guess we all have to be open to chance to some extent, and expect lots of wonderful changes to happen, most of them unanticipated.</p>
<p>Editing to add, don’t worry about any misunderstandings or diversion of the thread. This has been a really interesting discussion, so thank you OCMUsicMom for starting it!</p>
<p>I now do understand OCMom’s goal in starting this thread, and I do think it’s a good idea. I am curious to see others chime in; though of course, like compmom insinuates, true objectivism is probably not achievable since we are talking about an applied and creative field, where goals and definition of success is not consistent between any two people. Not to sound like a broken record (haha), but it is all about aesthetics. I predict that some posters might be hesitant to put stuff so permanently on-the-record (which is the point of the thread that OP wants to accomplish) here, since the composition world is not all that big, and OP is hoping for posters to chime in with personal anecdotes of experiences at specific schools. (All of the people at all the schools on my list know each other, I’m sure) It’s one thing to converse freely and PM and speak with current students; it’s another to database and present all those thoughts on a forum for posterity. That said, I think there is potential for productivity here. I’m curious to sit back and see what happens.</p>
<p>As many have said, one of the chief goals of any composition program and one of the chief goals of a composition student is the development of the student’s own composition voice. This voice can emerge early or may take longer to come forth. My son’s voice began to emerge in high school. It leans towards 20th and 21st century modernist, but it is his own voice. He is also deep, deep, deep into theory. Prior to applying to Oberlin, he did the one week summer composition program taught by the Oberlin faculty. That sealed his desire for Oberlin as the place in which to nuture his voice and he was fortunate to be admitted. In the process, his voice may or may not change. At this time he plans on a Ph.D. post Oberlin. Oberlin’s record of placing its composition students in the top Ph.D/DMA programs was also a factor in his decision to attend Oberlin. Oberlin also has a huge number of master classes and visting composers. He does not have to worry about sharing the cream with graduate students as Oberlin is undergraduate only in composition. He loves the fact that it is within the context of a LAC although he is a conservatory only student.</p>