<p>Which requires more math? Which requires more physics?</p>
<p>Look up the requirements for both at the schools your applying too. </p>
<p>At my school the computer science degree has several options for which track you want to be in. One is the physics track, one is the chemistry and there's a third one. So it's possible to do the computer science degree and take no physics at all. Where as the engineering majors have to take all the lower division physics classes. </p>
<p>Both have to take the standard calculus sequence but the computer science majors have to take an additional three upper division math courses.</p>
<p>Thus at my school engineering requires more physics classes and the computer science requires more math classes.</p>
<p>At UCLA, CS and CSE actually require the same math/physics courses, but CSE requires additional EE courses on top of that, so it involves more physics.</p>
<p>I thought in general CE was more physics because a lot of CE is EE. But these things differ a lot by school.</p>
<p>CE will have more Physics (at least the same amount). CS doesn't really involve physics at all.</p>
<p>CS will have math like discrete math and algorithms, while CE probably has more EE oriented math like differential equations and fourier transforms.</p>
<p>as said, engineering will have more physics, and CS will have more math.</p>
<p>how about you look at the school you want to go to and see what they do?</p>
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how about you look at the school you want to go to and see what they do?
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<p>That is a HORRIBLE way to choose a career.....you should know what you want to do before you choose a school, and if you don't you should be at a school that offers multiple options of good calibre.</p>
<p>Isn't a career in C.S. a problem these days due to outsourcing?</p>
<p>Isn't any career a problem due to outsourcing to people who can do the job better?</p>
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Isn't a career in C.S. a problem these days due to outsourcing?
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<p>No, there are natural barriers to outsourcing too many jobs and projections show there's going to be a shortage of qualified CS types over the next few years.</p>
<p>Shortage of CS people? </p>
<p>Then why are all the computer programming jobs going over to countries like India? In India, the typical programmer, who is quite efficient (just as efficient as the US worker) will do the work for only 10K a year vs. a US worker who'll charge up to 60K. So naturally, many companies will go to other countries. This poses a problem. With so many millions of international, competent, workers - I don't see how there will be a "shortage" of CS people.</p>
<p>Maybe you can give some examples of credible sites that prove your point...</p>
<p>p.s. - I'm not trying to insult or attack you. I'm just trying to find out the truth. It just appears to me that outsourcing is becoming a major issue w/ comp. programmers.</p>
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That is a HORRIBLE way to choose a career.....you should know what you want to do before you choose a school, and if you don't you should be at a school that offers multiple options of good calibre.
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<p>I think what he meant was, look at the school you're interested in and look at how the programs compare in terms of classes. That should give you an idea as to what requires what ;).</p>
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Shortage of CS people? </p>
<p>Then why are all the computer programming jobs going over to countries like India? In India, the typical programmer, who is quite efficient (just as efficient as the US worker) will do the work for only 10K a year vs. a US worker who'll charge up to 60K. So naturally, many companies will go to other countries. This poses a problem. With so many millions of international, competent, workers - I don't see how there will be a "shortage" of CS people.</p>
<p>Maybe you can give some examples of credible sites that prove your point...</p>
<p>p.s. - I'm not trying to insult or attack you. I'm just trying to find out the truth. It just appears to me that outsourcing is becoming a major issue w/ comp. programmers.
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<p>It is true that outsourcing is affecting the computer industry in the US.</p>
<p>However, I think there is also a lot of unfounded hype about outsourcing. First off, I think you must admit that you speak in hyperbole when you say "all" the computer programming jobs are going to India. Some are going to India, but when you say "all", you must admit you go too far. </p>
<p>Second of all, I think a lot of issue simply has to do with perception. The fact is, there were a LOT of people who got into the computer industry during the dotcom boom who, quite frankly had very few qualifications yet were paid a huge amount of money. I knew one guy who flunked out of Berkeley and had just read half of one of those Microsoft certification books, but otherwise knew nothing about computers, yet got hired for $90k at a dotcom. I knew several guys who just graduated with Stanford CS bachelor's degrees and no work experience, getting hired by the dotcoms at the Vice President level for over 125k a year plus major stock options. I can count quite a few computer guys who had worked for a few years as low-level developers yet had net worths in the 8 figures (on paper) from stock options from the dotcoms they worked for. </p>
<p>The truth is, during the boom, a lot of people who had any connection with computers were making far far more money than they could ever have imagined in their lives. What they don't understand (or don't WANT to understand) is that that was an unusual time in the economy. We will probably never see that kind of bubble ever again, where computer guys were making massive amounts of easy money. Right now is probably a normal time for the computer industry. That bubble was just a one-time event. </p>
<p>Sadly, a lot of computer people would rather believe that the bubble was normal. Basically, what I see is that a lot of people got spoiled by the dotcom boom, and they don't want to hear that there's no more easy money to be made, so they choose to blame it on external factors like outsourcing (and yes, it is only a minor factor). A lot of computer people still want to party like it's 1999.</p>
<p>As far as some sites you want to read, I would point to the following article that recently appeared in Businessweek, that details the intense hiring that is going on at Yahoo and Google for top US software engineers - to the point of raiding other top software companies like Microsoft for talent. It's gotten to the point that Microsoft has recently sued Google for hiring the noted search-algorithm expert Kai-Fu Lee for violating a noncompetition agreement, claiming that Lee knows many of Microsoft's search-algorithm secrets and so should not be allowed to work for Google.</p>
<p>But that leads to the question of, if all the computer jobs really are going to India, then why are Yahoo and Google hiring all these American computer engineers? It's not just Lee (who is Asian-American). Other prominent American computer experts like Louis Monier like Larry Tesler have switched jobs to Google and Yahoo. Guys like Monier and Tesler are some pretty big names. Or consider some of these quotes from the BW article:</p>
<p>"Some call it the "giant sucking sound" emanating from Silicon Valley. For others, it's a migraine in the making. But whatever they're calling the hiring binge at Google (GOOG ) and Yahoo! (YHOO ), just about everyone is a bit astonished at the fearsome force swallowing up some of tech's best and brightest. "</p>
<p>"The migration of software-engineering talent to Google and Yahoo is a testament to how high these search companies have risen in the tech firmament. Coveted talent from academia, startups, and venerable tech companies that a decade ago would have flocked to Microsoft Corp. (MSFT ) or Sun Microsystems (SUNW ) are now more than willing to switch teams and join Google or Yahoo. "</p>
<p>"It can be equally difficult for technology mainstays, including Microsoft. Not only has the software giant lost several top minds to Google in recent years, the Redmond (Wash.) company is also facing tougher competition for talent coming out of universities, even in its own backyard. Oren Etzioni, a professor of computer science at the University of Washington in Seattle, says Google has hired most of the top one-third of his search class in each of the past two years. "</p>
<p>The article ought to make you ask the question of why are Google and Yahoo hiring all these Americans, if they could just simply hire a bunch of cheap Indians instead. Note - I am well aware that Google and Yahoo are in fact doing outsourcing. Yet the fact remains that they are also hiring plenty of Americans too. Why are they doing that? I can tell you that Kai-Fu Lee and Larry Monier cost way way more than 10k a year, in fact easily more than 25 times that. So why are Google and Yahoo willing to pay that? In fact, why don't both Google and Yahoo fire all their American engineers today and move all those jobs to India today? Why are they wasting money on all these "overpriced" American engineers? Are Yahoo and Google being stupid? </p>
<p>I would go even further and say why hasn't Microsoft, Oracle and every other American software company simply gotten rid of all their American engineers and replaced all of them with Indians? If outsourcing really is so easy, then there is no reason for Microsoft to employ any American engineers, right? So why doesn't Microsoft get rid of them all? Yet I know for a fact that only have Microsoft, Oracle, and plenty of other software companies not only not gotten rid of their American engineers, but they have actually hired many more American engineers lately. Why? Are these companies just stupidly throwing money away? </p>
<p>I think that these companies are not stupid. I think these companies know what they are doing. If it really was true that outsourcing was so easy to do, then every single company would move every single computer job to India and there really would be absolutely zero computer jobs in the US. The fact is, outsourcing is not easy to do at all. There are logistical problems with trying to manage a computer project that is being built halfway around the world. There are important synergies that you get from being able to meet people face to face. There are important benefits you get from having your computer guys work closely with your business-development team and your sales/marketing team, and you derive these benefits only if you have some American engineers around. </p>
<p>Now don't get me wrong. Obviously outsourcing is going to affect certain computer jobs. For example, any low-level code monkey work is obviously a prime candidate for outsourcing. Any code maintenance work - yep, that will probably be outsourced. </p>
<p>However, from what I can see, the highly creative work, where the goal is to create features that nobody has ever thought of - that will remain in the US. Work that involves close interaction with marketing or busdev, that will probably remain in the US. I'm fairly sure that Kai-Fu Lee and Larry Monier aren't too worried about being replaced by a guy in India.</p>
<p>And besides, think of it this way. There has always been intra-national 'outsourcing' in the sense that certain parts of the country are cheaper than others. For example, Silicon Valley has been one of the most expensive places in the country for decades now. Housing is more expensive, and salaries are higher. So you could say that all those Silicon Valley tech companies have been hiring overpriced workers for decades now. Why did they ever do that? Even before the whole India outsourcing issue came up, why didn't Silicon Valley companies simply outsource all their jobs to, say, Mississippi (which has the lowest per-capita income of any state)? I think that goes to show that labor costs are only one factor in determining where companies do their hiring. Otherwise, there should never be any discrepancies in income anywhere in the country - for as soon as workers somewhere make more money than anywhere else, all the companies would instantly flee to a cheaper location.</p>
<p>"That is a HORRIBLE way to choose a career.....you should know what you want to do before you choose a school, and if you don't you should be at a school that offers multiple options of good calibre."</p>
<p>Yeah ok, not what I meant at all. I never mentioned anything about chosing a career, or anything anything really related to what you're saying.</p>
<p>karthikkito got it right</p>
<p>To reinforce what I've been saying, Microsoft plans to add more than 3000 jobs in the Seattle/Puget Sound area, bolstering the 28,000 employees that Microsoft already has just in that one part of the United States (and Microsoft also has many other offices around the US). Obviously not all of those employees are computer engineers, but thousands of them are. If computer outsourcing really is so easy to do, then why doesn't Microsoft today simply fire all its thousands of American employees and replace them all with Indians? Yet not only is Microsoft not doing that, it's actually ADDING American employees. Is Microsoft being stupid? </p>
<p>Why don't you go into EECS :) </p>
<p>Kill two birds with one stone</p>
<p>People are so obsessed with any sort of downward trends in top jobs--often times trying to bring people on the top down.</p>
<p>Let's say, for instance, that outsourcing does affect the CS market a lot, it is still generally more profitable than journalism or something like that.</p>
<p>CS = Pure Computer Science.
CE = CSE = CS + EE with more concentration on CS.</p>
<p>cmpE doesn't do nearly as much actual programming as actual CS majors do. at my school and quite a few others, cmpE's actually only need to take one more programming course. in their actual coursework, they do more programming than EE's do (who seem to do very little).</p>
<p>sakky - that was a great post. Now, I have a question for you.</p>
<p>Do you predict, in the coming years, a significant pay increase for these "computer engineers" who are in such high demand by Microsoft (due to the sucking power of Google and Yahoo)? It seems like the only way Microsoft will get the "best and brightest" is to higher their wages. What do you think?</p>
<p>If anything, if what you said was true - the job market for CEs should look better and better as these huge website corporations keep sucking.</p>