Hey all, rising senior here. I am fascinated by much of what Penn has to offer, but there is one underlying thing that has been concerning me: I know that Penn is “pre-professional”, but does that mean that students are less focused on genuine intellectual inquiry and discourse with their classmates? I’ve head a variety of different things on this, and I’m asking specifically in the context of CAS and humanities courses. Although I understand the desire to be focused on achieving a particular postgraduate outcome, I also enjoy interacting with my peers in academic contexts and engaging in discussions (and sometimes even debates) with them. From what I can tell, schools like HYP and Columbia emphasize this in their courses, though I have not heard much from Penn students on this topic. The dominant Penn stereotype I’m familiar with is that although Penn students are fiercely intelligent, the vibe is more of a cutthroat culture combined with large swaths of the student body trying to secure a job on Wall Street, rather than a passion for learning for the sake of knowledge. I don’t know how true this is, though. Anybody have thoughts on this?
You are not going to find a pre-professional culture in anthropology, Classics, Near Eastern Studies, Art History, linguistics, comparative literature, etc. All of these departments and courses have students who are there to do a deep dive intellectually. Some may or may not end up on Wall Street or in medical school, but that’s not the culture you will feel.
Are you mostly familiar with business majors when it comes to Penn students and alumni?
Sometimes, a college acquires a stereotype based on the majors it is most known for, but that does not necessarily mean that other majors match the stereotype.
Keep in mind there is Wharton, and then there is the rest of Penn’s undergraduate population.
None of the four other schools you mentioned (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Columbia) has an undergraduate business school. And Wharton is basically in a class by itself when it comes to undergraduate business schools, including placement into the most selective business positions.
OK, so Wharton has about 2500 undergrads. Penn has about 10000 total. That means there are about 7500 non-Wharton undergrads at Penn. And it is not at all a coincidence that 7500 is comparable in size to Harvard and Columbia, or for that matter Chicago or Stanford (Yale College is a bit smaller, Princeton smaller still).
OK, so then Penn makes a big deal about Wharton kids being mixed in with the other Penn undergrads for housing, many activities, and so on. But, they also have some of their own clubs and such.
I think it is inevitable, give all this, that Wharton will play some role in the “culture” at Penn. And since there is nothing like Wharton at the other colleges you named, that isn’t going to be a commonality Penn shares with those colleges.
On the other hand, 75% of Penn’s college is not Wharton.
So . . . it is entirely up to you. I actually think this feels a little like the common question about Greek life. Some people want a lot of Greek life. Some people don’t care, but are fine if a substantial fraction of people do Greek life, as long as it isn’t dominant. And some people want no Greek life at all.
So, how much Wharton do you want? If it is none at all, that is a problem. If you want a lot of it, apply to Wharton! And if you don’t care yourself, but are fine if a substantial fraction of people at your college do Wharton, then I believe Penn will be fine for you.
Wow, that hasn’t been my impression at all. For reference, I have one kid who graduated from the College and another one entering SEAS this year. My CAS kid was in a historically competitive major (Bio), but thought her classmates collaborative, insightful, studious, and diligent.
My impression was there was a lot of intellectual inquiry and discourse on campus across majors. General Education requirements in the College means a diversity of viewpoints are represented in classes. The kid majoring in environmental studies likely has different ideas than the sociology major about urban planning. There is space for that discussion and debate across the range of study. And Penn kids actualize! Discussion is not just a life of the mind exercise for some. You will see students out in West Philly protesting Penntrification. Maybe you would consider that behavior pre-professional, but I call it activism—that service to society Penn touts. It’s an exciting community!
Perhaps you have received limited information. Sure, Wharton kids have a reputation for being pre-professional and focused on career outcomes, but that is a fraction of the kids at Penn. Best thing to do is visit, sit in on a class or two. Decide for yourself if Penn is the intellectual community you seek.
Like most stereotypes, there is some fact behind them and some myth. Yes, Penn has a pre-professional bent for good reason - this was part of Ben Franklin’s vision for the university. It is a place with top professional schools in nursing, business, medicine, dentistry, law, veterinary medicine and communications. A portion of undergrads aspire to graduate programs. But as others have said, that in no way means that that’s all there is. And just because some students are ‘pre-professional’ certainly does not mean they lack intellectual curiosity - that’s your own prejudice.
Each undergrad class of ~2400 will have about 525 Wharton students, 100-200 Nursing students, and about 200-300 or so SEAS students. That leaves 1400 or so in CAS. Among those, you will have some additional pre-professional students such as pre-meds, pre-laws, etc. Are there some students with a cut-throat mentality? Of course. But you will find those everywhere.
That it’s weighing on your mind might be an indication that Penn is not the place for you. I’d encourage you to focus elsewhere if this is a concern. There is no shortage of colleges out there. If you’re a serious contender at HYP, Columbia and Penn, anywhere you land will be fine.
I went there for graduate school and lived on Super Block for a year. But I already knew a bunch of kids from undergrad. IMHO, someone with your description would have to work very hard to find their peep.
Showing your age. Has anyone used the term Super Block since the 1970s? By the mid-80s the High Rises were almost all undergraduate housing.
There were a fair number of undergraduates there in the 70s, too. Off-campus housing was cheaper and more plentiful in those days and, even with the supposed high crime-rate, was preferable to living in a “Super Block” dorm.
The night before, I had walked out of Philadelphia’s airport hoping to see snow, but was slightly disappointed that there was none. With just the winter wind blowing through the super block of dormitory high-rises, I realized it was colder than I had expected.
Expedition Magazine | REU Student Nanibaa Beck
Located in the northwestern quadrant of Penn’s “super block” – a collection of the University’s college houses, green spaces, and other academic buildings – the building was designed to complement the scale of the surrounding context.
University of Pennsylvania - Gutmann College House - INTECH Construction
The Covenant , known to the student body as “Dueling Tampons”[125][126] or “The Tampons”,[127] is a large red structure created by Alexander Liberman and located on Locust Walk as a gateway to the high-rise residences “super block”. It was installed in 1975 and is made of rolled sheets of milled steel.
University of Pennsylvania - Wikipedia
Penn is still part of the Quaker Consortium with Swat, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr. If you were to find that the intellectual vibe at Penn does not reach your desired level, you’d be able to amp that up a bit by taking some classes at those three great LACs. (of course, you may do so even if you like the level of intellectualism at UPenn…)
ThatPrepGuy, I agree with you that Penn offers a broad and exciting scope of academic options. Just a quick tour around their website proves that.
And you are also correct that the professional mindset of Wharton absolutely permeates the entire undergraduate culture. It is hard for it not to. And keep in mind, Ben Franklin created the university specifically as a pre-professional school …. that has always been the core of Penn’s ethos. Based on what you have said, it is not the best fit for you. A good fit? Maybe. A great fit? Probably not.
And do some more research on HYP. I definitely would not say that Harvard fits the description of an “academics for the sake of academics” culture at all. Of the three, maybe Yale is somewhat like that.
The fact that you are asking these questions makes it clear there is one premier university that is a perfect fit for you. That’s UChicago.
The author of Excellent Sheep expressed a similar opinion:
whose students the author has already described as having aspects of “excellent sheep,”
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