<p>reeses414––No, that is completely fair. I was speaking on large generalizations. I have run into a few Michigan kids, airplanes, siblings of friends, etc, but you're right: I haven't had meaningful relationships with them to provide some valuable judgement. I'm sorry about that.</p>
<p>SBDad––I think these honors colleges work well in creating concentrated groups of talented and motivated students, which as your son has experienced, produce nice outcomes. However, when we talk about the university as a whole, I think we see a very different picture. In fact, two UMich students I ran into at the airport actually both commented on how 'weird' the honors kids are, clearly indicating that (for at least these two students) UMich students and LSA students maintain different values.</p>
<p>Finally SBDad, you derided my generalizations, which I suppose was fair.
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The stats of the students in LSA Honors are higher than Ivy admits.
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</p>
<p>While the stats of the students in LSA may be similar to those of Ivy admits, they are certainly not higher. </p>
<p>
[quote]
For the class entering in the Fall of 2007, the median SAT range (math and verbal) was 1410-1550; the median ACT range was 32-34; the median range for unweighted academic GPA was 3.8-4.0.
<p>Fair enough, fhimas. Would agree with you on all counts. Those stats are very similar to Ivies, but not higher. I think what we see is a more compressed range of scores in Honors which makes sense when comparing to a University as a whole.</p>
<p>JRS, you wrote, "So why is it out of bounds to question whether a kid who is BOTH close to average on the SAT I among college-bound kids in her cohort, AND is someone with a history of low grades, i.e., not oriented towards classroom achievement, should assume that a four-year bachelor's degree program straight out of high school is right for her?"</p>
<p>College dropout rates are caused by a whole lot more than SATs or even SATs and gpas, even if there's a correlation between the two. Many students drop out for financial reasons-- and that's more likely at schools that gap the students (which excludes the most competitive colleges/ universities so it may well correlate with SAT scores but isn't caused by a lack of academic preparation). Also, minority students are disproportionately represented in both categories: low SATs and high dropout rates (often for economic reasons). Are we then saying that a college degree should be the purview of upper-class white males (who are most likely to score well on SATs)? Remember that SAT scores most closely correlate to income. </p>
<p>Fhim, the most economically successful person I know (a multi-millionaire) is a graduate of U-Michigan. The other grad I know well went on to get a grad degree from Yale. Michigan is a top school and there are many outstanding students there. (I suspect you would find some people who are not good at conversation at most universities.) Oh, and probably the most intelligent person I've ever met is a graduate of Univ of Illinois, Chicago Circle. He speaks something like 7 languages and completed an entire engineering degree in record time and went on to get a grad degree from Berkeley.</p>
<p>"I think what we see is a more compressed range of scores in Honors which makes sense when comparing to a University as a whole."</p>
<p>Exactly right. The giveaway is in the 25th percentile score: 1410 is very high. At Yale (Class of 2010) and Princeton (Class of 2011), it was 1390; at Dartmouth (Class of 2011), it was 1330.</p>
<p>Ironically, the only pressure we ever felt was from posters on CC - lol.</p>
<p>Isn't that the truth! I had NO IDEA of the kind of admissions frenzy that exists out there until I stumbled across this website. In my pre-CC naivete, I thought my child would apply to a couple of Ivy Leagues and the state u. and a few other odds and ends universities, and it has been with wide-eyed wonder that I have read the posts on this website.
Very informative and also entertaining, but I do resent the over-reaction of some CC parents to one teen's post where she wondered if a u that accepted her was worth attending, and she got pretty beaten up by some CC parents for not knowing enough about the school before applying. There was no excuse for that and I'm still smarting for that teenager.</p>
<p>ivydreamin - But we're not real!!!! As I said in an earlier post, CC is much more interesting than my Ouija board when it comes to questions about my kids' futures.</p>
<p>If you already have a good guidance counselor for your kid, or your own background makes you pretty experienced in the college admission process, your pre-CC naivete is just fine as to your own kid!!!! I think CC is especially valuable in trying to find out facts about a certain school's process, and the posts from the kids who get in are really helpful, as are parents who have been thru the admission process at school X with their own child. You should note that a lot of kids who get into top schools and post their stats here after their acceptance are not superhuman. As for the kids who obsess about the difference between a 2340 and a 2400 on their SATs (do I need to take it again???)...they have problems far greater than getting into Harvard.</p>
<p>I agree that things depend on a kid's chosen field - Each major has its own "ivies." My dad recently told me that on a trip to LA, his movie business friends asked how my college search was going, and he said that I had been admitted early to NYU. This impressed none of them until he said that I was an acting major in Tisch, at which point one told him that I was very lucky to have been admitted to "one of the only four drama programs that matter."</p>
<p>I also loved the author's comment about how the smartest kids often don't do well in high school. There is a huge difference between intelligence and high test scores. In my experience, the most brilliant kids are those who realize the faults of the private school and college admissions systems, and who tend to exist outside of them. However, I don't know about these kids being successful later on - I think one of this country's greatest shortcomings is that it rewards overachieving robots who work within the system, and those people who actually have the potential to change things grow disenchanted so early that many never begin to reach their full potential.</p>
<p>Also, I was pretty offended by obsessed mom's comment about the 700 reading 350 math kid having a learning disorder. It is completely possible to just not be a math person. This was my test problem - 770 reading and writing, 600 and below math. Granted, a 600 is not even close to 350,but it was a wide enough gap (especially because my first practice SAT turned up a 460 math...ugh) to alarm my counselor. But do I have a learning disorder? No....I've been tested. There are some people who just excel in specific areas and are useless in others. I mean, I can't even begin to wrap my head around the meaning of simple trig, but I can explicate the modes of rhetoric used by Jane Austen for hours.</p>
<p>Ager08, intelligence is, indeed, multifaceted. The valedictorians and the 2400 SATs are blessed with intelligence in many areas. Others are strong in some areas and weak in others. In most schools, a student is supposed to be good in everything....math, science, reading....and in elementary school, even art and music. Most people's minds aren't like that. In adult life, you can play to your strengths and most people are none the wiser as to your weaknesses. While inability to do math may cause school to be hell, as an adult, ones's friends might be amused that you use a calculator to figure the tip at a restaurant.</p>
<p>Fascinating article & thread. My S early on said that USC would be his "safety." He applied to several schools and ultimately chose USC where he is very happy. His sister has decided that it's her "dream" school and she has applied to enter as a transfer.</p>
<p>Many of the most successful people I've met have degrees from non-ivies, including U of Michigan and other schools.</p>
<p>I find the college & ivy/elite hype very unhealthy and scary.</p>