Confused Senior needs your Advice

Chance Me / Match Me!
41

I certainly agree there are advantages to getting an engineering degree if one wants to go into the field of engineering! I think saying studying something else would necessarily “enforce a delay” might be a bit too strong, though, depending on what is meant by “entering the field” and what one’s long term goal is. Not all companies doing engineering work require ABET certified degrees for every engineering position. One could do engineering work under the supervision of someone with a Professional Engineer license, or find themselves on the research side of the organization or some other unit, or at a firm that primarily builds prototypes that are not for direct public use but guides what other companies do, for example. Someone with a stronger science foundation might actually have certain advantages in doing applied research that directly informs engineering projects, particularly if one couples the basic science with a later engineering degree. :wink:

But all this raises another point. As best I can tell, several of the schools listed by OP don’t have ABET certified Environmental Engineering. Getting an engineering degree that isn’t ABET certified will require some tests and years of apprenticeship if they want their own PE license one day, but my understanding is those hoops will be fewer if the degree at least covers engineering design foundations, which I would guess they do. Nonetheless, it’s probably worthwhile to at least be aware which Environmental Engineering programs are ABET certified (eg, Georgia Tech’s) and which are not (eg, Yale’s.)

42

@David_D

Please answer this…do you plan to apply to medical school after undergrad?

43

I went through and put the EFC from the NPC’s that you ran by them. If a school doesn’t have a price by it, you didn’t share it. My question is, have you run the NPCs for those schools? If so, are they affordable? You don’t want other schools on your list who have an EFC like Tufts.
Make sure you do the NPC for Ohio State as well, if that’s your safety.

Also, I agree with @tsbna44 about double-checking the NPC for the public schools. It looks like they gave you a net price for in-state students, not out-of-state.

44

Ok, taking a pause on the affordability question, there is also the matter of the schools you’re applying to. Your intended majors are environmental chemistry and biomedical engineering. I am less concerned with the titles of majors (for instance, a school may not have an environmental chemistry major, but you could major in chemistry and then specialize within that major in environmental chemistry). Or, many people consider environmental engineering a subspecialty of civil engineering, and thus will have a concentration within that major.

I am concerned, however, that you are interested in engineering as one of your possible majors and you are considering applying to some schools that aren’t accredited for anything in engineering, or are not accredited in your areas of interest. I have gone through ABET and if a school is accredited for biomedical & environmental engineering, I just put those two specialties down. If it didn’t have one of those specialties, then I listed all areas the college is ABET-accredited. As I am not an engineering specialist, perhaps your areas of interest fall in as a subspecialty in a different area. Perhaps engineering folk like @eyemgh, @momofboiler1, or @MW_Engineer94 can comment on that.

Harvard REA ***: Engineering Sciences, Electrical, Mechanical
Georgia Tech EA *** Biomedical Engineering, Environmental Engineering
Ohio State (in state) EA ***Biomedical Engineering, Environmental Engineering
Yale…Chem, Electrical, Mechanical
Princeton: Aerospace, Chem, Civil, Electrical, Mechanical
Columbia: Biomedical, Earth & Environmental
Upenn: Bioengineering, Chemical & Biomolecular, Computer, CS, Electrical, Materials, Mechanical, Systems
Brown: Biomedical, Environmental
Cornell: Biological, Environmental
Dartmouth: Engineering (general)
Johns Hopkins: Biomedical, Environmental
Northwestern: Biomedical, Environmental
Uchicago: NONE
WashU: Biomedical, chemical, electrical, mechanical, systems
Rice: Bioengineering, Chemical, Civil, Electrical, Materials & Nano
USC: Biomedical, Environmental
University of Washington: Bioengineering, Bioresource Science & Engineering, Environmental

Still have to write for:

Georgetown (unsure if I should apply…although that have a good premed program): NONE
MIT: Aerospace, Chemical, Chemical-Biological, CS & Engineering, Electrical & CS, Materials, Mechanical & Ocean, Mechanical, Nuclear
UCs (Berkeley, LA, San Diego) – not affordable, did not bother

Duke: Biomedical, Environmental

NYU: Chemical & Biomolecular, Civil, Computer, Electrical, General, Mechanical

Cal-Tech: Mechanical only (surprising me)

Stanford: Civil, Mechanical

Others schools to consider as other options for the last few schools:

Olin: Electrical & CE, Engineering (general), Mechanical

Boston University: Biomedical, Computer, Electrical, Mechanical

Northeastern: Bioengineering, Environmental

Emory ( I am already applying to Gtech, so I’m worried both will be too similar ): NONE

Tufts: Biomedical, Environmental

Williams: NONE

If engineering is a definite possibility you want to keep open for college, then I would eliminate these schools as options since they aren’t accredited for anything in engineering:

  • U. of Chicago
  • Georgetown
  • Emory
  • Williams

I would also take a very close look at these schools and talk with some experts and see what the coursework options are at the university, because I’m not sure they’re going to have what you need for your stated interests, in particular, the first two on the list:

  • Harvard
  • Dartmouth
  • Yale
  • Stanford
  • Boston U.
  • Cal Tech (this is more a question for experts…what’s the impact on Cal Tech only being accredited for mechanical engineering? I know this school is renowned as one of the best tech schools in the world.)
  • Olin (similar question as about Cal Tech, though Olin is accredited for a couple more fields)
45

None whatsoever.

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46

Agreed.

Here’s CalTech’s announcement when they decided to sunset Chem E ABET accreditation: ABET Accreditation | Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering

Tufts has also announced they are sunsetting BME ABET accreditation (they are also sunsetting CS ABET accreditation, but that’s not covered in the article below):

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47

I only scanned the thread, so if these things were covered, I apologize.

First and foremost, I didn’t see a safety. Regardless what the rest of your application looks like, with a 3.6x, you need to expand your list. A safety is a school that is a guaranteed admit, that is guaranteed to be affordable without counting on any hopeful scholarships.

Now that we’ve got that out of the way, if you have ANY interest in engineering, you need to limit your list to schools that have the engineering discipline that you want. The alternative is to write off engineering as an option if you end up at one of those schools.

NOTE: For those who care, ABET is very important, except when it isn’t. Schools like Caltech and Stanford, with long records of strong engineering can break the rules, because they essentially wrote/write the rules. That should not be seen as saying all non-ABET accredited programs are OK. There’s a big difference between a school that can’t get it and schools that have electively dropped it.

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48

Probably minimal, since Caltech does not offer civil engineering, the other engineering majors it does offer (chemical, electrical (mainly areas other than power infrastructure)) are not generally ones where people want PE licensing to sign off on designs used by the general public, students are probably unlikely to be aiming for the patent exam, and Caltech has enough reputation that external accreditation probably adds no reputational benefit.

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49

Where a non-ABET accredited engineering bachelor’s degree program can be acceptable to the student:

  1. The following apply:
  • the student is not going in a direction that requires or benefits from PE licensing (PE licensing is most common in civil engineering, but some in other engineering areas do work on infrastructure used by the general public), and
  • the student is not considering the patent exam, and
  • the school has a long established reputation in engineering.
  1. Or the student’s goals are more engineering-adjacent rather than engineering per se (e.g. finance or consulting in an engineering context).

In category 1, there are situations like Stanford and Caltech. In category 2, there would be the non-ABET-accredited programs at Brown, Dartmouth, WLU, etc. (although Brown and Dartmouth also offer ABET-accredited programs).

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50

I found this flowchart describing how to get a PE license in one state (CA) interesting. Such charts differ by state. Note the buttons can be selected to bring up other charts or pages.
https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/flowchart_for_pe.pdf

For what it’s worth, whenever I search for the percentage of engineers who have PE licenses I get ~20%. I think the source cited by others was the National Society of Professional Engineers, but I haven’t found their actual study so don’t know how they came up with that figure. But it seems safe to say a PE license will be very important in some cases, but not essential in others.

51

PEs are generally only sought by those who need them to work on contracts that require them, typically publicly funded infrastructure. That’s not the only reason to seek ABET accreditation though. In all but the cases of the rare blue bloods without it, ABET is a proxy for quality. The non-ABET programs won’t be ones most hiring engineers see on a regular basis, so they’ll be inclined to pass them over.

52

I assume that Olin would be considered one of the rare blue bloods that employers will view as quality without an ABET accredidation, but is that correct?

53

Olin is ABET accredited for General Engineering, ME and EE/CompE. Their official name is Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering, so they list under F. It’s a great school, for the right person, better than the ones that follow here. I don’t think they can claim the same cachet at Caltech, Stanford, and MIT though due to their age.

54

Olin has a distinct pedagogical focus… not just that’s it’s a young program (which it is) but that it’s meaningfully different for students. High quality and rigorous program.

I don’t think it is accurate to say “Better Than”. Cooper Union isn’t “Better Than”- it’s different. Wentworth is different. RPI is different. A prospective student needs to figure out what kind of education and training is going to work for his or her needs.

Is it “Better” to get a degree in musical performance from a conservatory or a university with a highly regarded performance program? Is it “Better” to study fine arts at RISD or similar, or a university with a strong visual arts department?

YMMV.

55

You’re quoting me out of context. This is what I wrote:

Note, for the right person.

That person would have to want a very small program focused on team and project based learning with a significant emphasis on entrepreneurship.

In that context, better is the appropriate word.

Now let’s be done with semantics and return to the OP. :neutral_face:

56

Those going into civil engineering should assume that they will want to become PE licensed. In other engineering, students should consider whether their intended career directions involve signing off on designs of infrastructure used by the general public, as opposed to designs of things that one’s employer takes responsibility for.

Environmental engineering often involves civil engineering type projects, so PE licensing can be a consideration. Biomedical engineering is much less likely to need PE licensing.

57

My EE husband had no idea what his future jobs would entail. He could have ended up never needing a PE. As it happens, he is the sign off for many many government funded jobs, state, local and federal. Thus he needs his PE. His company also pays a dividend to PE holders.

These are things he would have had NO clue about as an undergrad. His college of engineering advised everyone to aim for the PE. They all took the EIT (now a different name) to plan for every possibility.

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59

There were some questions asked further up about the significance or lack thereof of certain highly prestigious schools not offering ABET certified degrees for specific engineering programs. Per the CA flow-chart for getting a PE, it doesn’t seem to me there’s no consequence to not having an ABET accredited BS, even from a top program. I think it’s more accurate to say ABET accreditation helps with getting a PE but is not a necessary prerequisite, at least in CA. I certainly agree that a PE importance varies by engineering field, among other things.

If I’ve read the flowchart correctly, in addition to the exams, in CA an individual with an ABET credentialed BS will need 24 months of qualifying work experience before applying for the PE license, an individual with an engineering degree that isn’t credentialed will need 48 (unless they have a credentialed PhD), and an individual without an engineering degree will need 72.

It may be true that a graduate of a top program will have certain employment advantages even without the ABET accredited undergraduate degree, but if they are pursuing a career path where a PE is necessary, my understanding is they will still need the appropriate amount of qualifying work experience, which will vary by state.

Having said all this, when Caltech and Stanford chose to stop getting their Chem Engineering programs ABET accredited a few years ago, I don’t believe it was because there was zero difference to the requirements for the PE license for their graduates compared to less prestigious schools, but, rather, because so few of their Chem Engineering graduates were ultimately getting PE degrees (less than 1% in the case of Caltech), and they saw an educational advantage in having more flexibility with their curriculum’s than might be possible if they continued to offer ABET accreditation. By that reasoning, one might assume that if Stanford doesn’t offer ABET accredited Environmental Engineering, it’s because the majority of their own Environmental Engineering graduates to date do not need PE licenses (Caltech doesn’t offer an undergraduate Environmental Engineering degree). So, in addition to there being a difference by state in terms of PE requirements, and a difference in field in terms of PE relevance, there may be a difference in school in extent to which a graduate is more likely to pursue a more applied career path where a PE is likely to be needed vs a more research, public policy, or business management oriented career path where it’s not.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i48/time-leave-behind-chemical-engineering.html

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60

Given that I brought up CA requirements, I felt I would be remiss not to circle back and say that it appears there is no Environmental Engineer PE license in CA. For such states, an individual not interested in grad school and who wants PE authority to sign-off on construction designs for civil projects might want to consider Civil Engineering for their undergrad degree.

That said, I think it’s often informative to consider how top schools approach a given field, and what those approaches suggest they would tell their own undergrads interested in environmental engineering careers.

At Caltech, there’s no undergraduate environmental engineering degree, but there is a graduate option. I suspect they don’t consider their undergraduate offerings lacking, but would, instead, advise a student to pursue their civil engineering major (not ABET accredited) or a basic science like physics or chemistry, then to pursue environmental engineering through work experience or grad school.

https://eas.caltech.edu/dept

At Stanford, there is an Environmental Systems Engineering undergraduate major, but it is not ABET accredited. I imagine an advisor there would not deem it unreasonable to suggest a student select that major if interested in environmental engineering, then plan on getting the necessary work experience if they wanted to later pursue a PE license.

https://cee.stanford.edu/academics-admission/undergraduate-degrees

At MIT, their Civil and Environmental Engineering department offers a general Engineering degree that is ABET accredited. However, it appears that there is an option to concentrate on environmental engineering within that degree, though I can’t tell if that translates to degree title.

http://catalog.mit.edu/schools/engineering/civil-environmental-engineering/#environmental-engineering-minor

At Berkeley, the Civil and Environmental Engineering Dept offers a degree in Civil Engineering that is ABET accredited.

https://ce.berkeley.edu/undergrad/curriculum

Of course, there are many other great schools, and some will have different approaches from the above. I wouldn’t feel it’s my place to say what’s best for a given individual. Part of what makes this tricky is that states can have different requirements, and what is meant by “environmental engineering” can actually be quite broad and even include what some might consider to be research work. If nothing else, I hope to have offered information that might be useful in forming questions OP can ask themselves down the road. It does seem to me that someone who wants to work in the field of environmental engineering should at least consider civil engineering. But the good news (in my opinion anyway!) is that there’s likely numerous ways to carve out a successful career path in the field.

Good luck again to the OP! Learning more about all this has been an interesting experience for me.

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61

Caltech does not have civil engineering: Majors & Minors | Undergraduate Admissions

Or it may be advisable to recommend that a student looking at a PE license major in civil engineering, but choose electives in the environmental engineering area of interest. Stanford’s civil engineering major is ABET accredited: BS Civil Engineering