<p>I've found that the two schools, even though one is an LAC on the East Coast and the other is a large university on the West Coast, have some connections. I am applying to both, so are marlgirl and some others in the Stanford EA pool. Both schools offer high-quality engineering programs right along with the wonderful humanities programs. My dad's friend went to Swat 2 years as an undergrad, then transferred to Stanford, as did now-famous astronaut Sally Ride. And Robin Mamlet was once the Dean of Admissions at Swarthmore but now holds that job at Stanford. Just a few interesting connections that I found between the two schools that otherwise seem very different from each other...</p>
<p>Where is Swarthmore located on the East Coast?</p>
<p>That's another similarity. Swarthmore is located in a small Pennsylvania hamlet of the same name, about 15 minutes from Philadelphia. Like Stanford which is in a suburb of San Francisco.</p>
<p>College_hopeful - You said Swarthmore has a top engineering program -- what do you know about their science programs, specifically in biology?</p>
<p>I don't know that much, because I'm not really a sciences person, but I do know that Swat has a very good enginering program for an LAC.</p>
<p>College hopeful,</p>
<p>The problem with SLC's engineering is you usually get a degree in "general engineering". If that's the case for Swarthmore, you will probably need to go to grad school to obtain a more practical degree.</p>
<p>Below are posts from the thread "Stanford Parties, lots of drinking?" </p>
<p>pod:
I read your post that "if I decide I can find most of what I like about Swarthmore at Stanford then it'll be Stanford for sure." I have in fact read your posts and the other Stanford posts for months. I have numerous friends that went to both Stanford and Swarthmore, and I cannot understand why you would choose Stanford over Swarthmore; Swarthmore is clearly a better fit for you.</p>
<p>marlgirl:
Wow pod that's a pretty strong assertion... 99% of everyone else I've talked to have said that they cannot understand why I would choose Swarthmore over Stanford. Why do you feel so strongly that Swarthmore is the better fit? Perhaps you should PM me or IM me. On these message boards I tend to push a bit more for Swarthmore to compensate for strong support for Stanford, so I'm very curious to see if Swat really is the better fit or if the issue is more that my posts were artifically biased towards Swat. I was so set on Stanford for the past couple of weeks... but now after writing my Why Swat? essay tonight (yes, on Christmas Eve, sad I know) I remember what I love so much about Swat... So yeah, definitely let me know why you think that, I'd be really interested to hear what you have to say.</p>
<p>collegebound123:
Actually, I'd be interested to learn more about Swarthmore too, and the reasons for picking it over Stanford (aside from the obvious-- LAC vs. large university reasons). Hopefully marlgirl or pod, you could PM me as well.</p>
<p>nngmm:
marlgirl and collegebound123,
There can be many reasons to choose Swarthmore over Stanford and vise versa. I have a child at each one, and both are very happy with their respective choices. It really depends a lot on your personality, and which school is a better fit for you, as well as, to some degree , on your educational goals. No one can help you make this choice without knowing you really well. It does not surprise me that 99% of people you talk to cannot understand why you would choose Swarthmore over Stanford (especially if they are from the west coast). Most people, unless they are in the academia, never heard of Swarthmore (although it is very well known and well respected in academic circles). If your goal is a career in applied sciences, and you don't want to go to grad school, Stanford is probably a better choice, regardless of "personality" issues. If you are into "pure" science or humanities, you really should try to find out, which one will be a better fit for you. Overnight at Swarthmore, preferably NOT during the admit weekend, can be very helpful, I think.</p>
<p>I might be wrong, but it is my impression, that Swarthmore-type kids at Stanford are the ones that sign up for the SLE program (and are being viewed as "weird" by the larger Stanford community)...</p>
<p>efilsiertaeht:
nngmm, on the SLE thing, I think you would be surprised. SLE kids are maybe half classics/english majors, but the other half are the over achieving science/math kids who have to take anything portrayed as the "challenging" alternative. They're also on the whole less social... maybe Swarthmore kids aren't that social? My friend stayed overnight at Swarthmore and hated it because the kids were very elitist (the kids in the "party" dorm didn't want to visit the "geek" dorm, etc), but I think that's the east coast spirit versus Stanford.</p>
<p>marlgirl:
I had my physics teacher (who happens to be a very good friend of mine) watch the swat video. Even though he's a really big fan of the smaller schools (he went to a smaller college himself) he thinks that a larger university would serve my needs/talents better. A couple of his concerns
1) that a lot of the students seemed to be saying the same thing, all wanting to change the world, etc. very liberal, not a lot of disagreement/diversity-- is that just the video? or are there some topics where the student body is very one-sided?
2) this part really surprised me, but he worried that swat wouldn't be enough of a challenge, that I wouldn't be up against strong enough students nor be in an environment with people who are top in their fields quite like I would at stanford... I think he often overestimates my ability, but might this be an issue? is it possible? swat kids seem pretty damn smart to me, so I was really shocked to think that that could even be a possibility</p>
<p>nngmm:
I did not see the video, so I can't really comment on that. The school as a whole is liberal, but so is Stanford. Swarthmore seems to view social responsibility as part of its "mission", so they probably wanted to show that side in the video. But it's not like students have changing the world on their daily schedule there. The "activist" groups are just more vocal, so there is that "Kremlin on the Crum" impression some people get. But the student body is very diverse in every way. There are active Young Republicans, there are many different religious groups, etc.</p>
<p>I don't think you will have a problem with not being challanged enough at Swat. That said, you have to have reasonable expectations. At either place you will not always be surrounded by brilliance, but both will have many, many smart and very interesting kids. At Stanford you'll probably meet more new people. At Swarthmore you will get to know the people you meet much more.</p>
<p>As for the professors, there are many more big names at Stanford. Many of them are teaching undergraduate students, including freshmen. However, you have to realize that many of them are not there because they want to teach undergraduates. They are there because of their research, and because they can have the resources and the grad students working with them that Stanford provides. Teaching undergrads for many of them is a chore, a price they pay for being Stanford profs. Whereas at Swarthmore the profs are there because teaching undergrads is what they want to do. They are often on first name basis with students, and the relationships are much more close and personal. Sure, at Stanford the profs have office hours, and you can go and talk to them, but it is not the same as just chatting before or after class, or having seminars at their homes.</p>
<p>kupolu:
To nngmm:</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but your portrayal of undergraduate education at Stanford is grossly oversimplified. "Big name" professors do not hate teaching undergradutes -- indeed, for many of them it is one of their favorite things to do (see Nobel laureate Douglas Osheroff, who received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1996 and currently teaches a Freshman Introductory Seminar).</p>
<p>I don't see how the faculty/student relationships are "much more close and personal" at Swarthmore. All of my classes have been extremely small and intimate (between 10-15 people, sections being sometimes smaller), and I have been on a first name basis with all of my teachers. My IHUM Teaching Fellow, Allison Katsev, always stayed after class to hold discussions with us, often staying until her next class started (an hour later). </p>
<p>The resources are all there at Stanford -- it's simply what you make of them. And I don't think anyone is arguing that Stanford has a lot of resources at our disposal.</p>
<p>needhelp06:
well said. if you want it at stanford, you can get it.</p>
<p>nngmm:
kupolu,
My son is a sophomore at Stanford, and is very happy there. I have no doubt that it is a great school, and for many kids it offers everything they need/want, and more. That said, his "small" classes (with the exception of seminars that are capped at 15 and have the issue of applying/getting into) have been 40-50 people, and many other classes more like 100-200 (not that it ever bothered him in any way.) The sections are small, but they are taught by TAs/TFs; many of them are great, but some are not so great, as I am sure you know.
My son took honors math class during his first quarter freshmen year. (He is very much a math/science person.) He did not do great on his first midterm, and when I asked him, why didn't he get some help, his answer was "The prof is very good, but during the lecture he has to cover a lot of material, so he goes really fast. The TF is a nice guy, and is very smart, but hardly speaks any English, so the sections don't help much, and the textbook feels like it is written in a foreign language, so just reading it does not help either." He ended up doing OK in the class, btw, and didn't think there was anything wrong with it, but I was surprised that there was no resources easily available, especially during the first quarter freshmen year.</p>
<p>You can have personal relationship with professors at Stanford, but it requires some effort on your part, especially in math/science/cs classes, where introductory classes tend to be pretty big. Depending on your personality, it may or may not be a problem. There is no doubt that you can get a great education and have a great experience there.</p>
<p>Posts from other thread continued (apparently there actually is a character limit for each post):</p>
<p>efilsiertaeht:
Those professors DO have officers and they WILL help you. It just says that your son didn't feel like taking the initiative to go and talk to the professor. </p>
<p>Personally it sounds like marlgirl is more of a humanities person if she's considering Swarthmore, you seem to imply that yourself. Therefore your generalities about large sizes when you only have experience with math/science classes don't really apply.</p>
<p>I haven't had a class with more than 15 except for my IHUM lecture. My classes first quarter were 5, 10 and 15, and none of them were classes I had to apply for. Therefore, it depends on what you want to do.</p>
<p>marlgirl:
Actually I will probably be a math/physics major. I like Swarthmore because of its overall environment, it just seems to match my personality well. But maybe Stanford would match my personality well too? The admissions info sessions try to make it all things to all people, so I have no clue what Stanford is really like... I feel that all I know is their marketing pitch.</p>
<p>nngmm:
efilsiertaeht,
As far as I know, marlgirl is interested in math and physics, so, if anything, your academic experience, that has to do exclusively with theater so far, would be somewhat less relevant for her.</p>
<p>nngmm:
marlgirl,
The good news is that generally you can't go wrong choosing between those two. You might be happier in one of them, but you will get a great education either way.</p>
<p>I think it is a common misconception to judge the average class size at a university based on a few introductory classes, such as first-quarter math and science courses. Obviously classes that the entire freshmen class takes are going to be larger (such as Chem 31x or Math 51), but from what I have gathered this has no bearing whatsoever on their effectiveness. Sections are for more personal discourse in those circumstances. But these are the exceptional cases -- the vast majority of classes at Stanford are extremely small. My philosophy class, for example, had a lecture of 20 people and a section of 8, so there was as much student/instructor discourse in lecture as in section.</p>
<p>As for office hours being a hindrance to student/faculty relations, that is a myth. I went to my philosophy professor's office hours for help on my PWR paper (which happened to coincide with her area of expertise), and she sat down with me for an hour and a half and spoke to me about Kantianism and utilitarianism and double-level theory (all of which I was writing about). It was amazing. She took such an interest in my paper that she actually asked me to drop it by her office when I was finished so she could take a look at it (and this was for a separate class!). It is extremely difficult to make broad generalizations of the undergraduate experience at Stanford. As I said before, it is what you make of it -- and all of the resources are at your disposal.</p>
<p>One of the strengths of Stanford as compared with other, more specialized, schools is its relative breadth -- you won't be pigeonholed into any one major or the other. I came in thinking I was going to be a Chemistry/Biology major, and now after taking Philosophy (as well as starting another language), I'm not so sure. But I know that Stanford has an excellent faculty and resources in whatever major that I may choose. Fuzzy and techie alike.</p>
<p>Take this all with a grain of salt -- I am absolutely in love with Stanford. It may seem that Stanford students are overly peppy or enthusiastic about their school, but the sentiment is honest. It's hard not to be in a place like this.</p>
<p>Chris</p>
<p>girl at my school last year got into Stanford EA, then turned it down for Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Just adding to the discussion, I'm a SCEA Acceptee (who'll probably end up at Stanford) who has a sister who goes to Swat (Junior, btw, ngmnn, my sister was wondering who your Swat son/daughter is, twins maybe?). I've visited quite a few times, and even though I'm not applying to Swat since I got into Stanford, I thought we could give Marlgurl (and whoever else who is interested) an interesting view.
Stanford, from our impression, is simply a bigger Swarthmore. We think Swat may (?) be slightly more academically intense... but the student bodies seem to be equally intelligent. Our cousin, who graduated from Stanford, said the default grade at Stanford tended to be a B+, whereas at Swarthmore the default grade is a C. That may affect your future.
Since Stanford is bigger, by default, you will have more resources (i.e. a bigger library, more research opportunities, the med school and other graduate level courses, etc!).<br>
At the same time, don't discount Stanford's atmosphere either, there's something to be said for rooting for sports teams (Swat has no :( football team), great weather and super-friendly people, as superficial as that list may sound. But I agree, Swat's atmosphere is one of a kind, its the smallness that creates a close-knit community. When I visited my sister, I was very impressed that she could have a great time just hanging out with friends at "The Qub" and playing Cranium, there was no pressure to drink or anything...but I'm sure I'll find that at Stanford as well.
So, in a nutshell, there's a long list of pros and cons at both colleges (more pros at both than cons though :p). Our advice, visit (overnight), TALK to MANY students at both colleges and just go with your gut. You definitely can't go wrong either way.</p>
<p>Just a few random comments:</p>
<p>a) The Swarthmore engineering program results in a B.S. degree with a major in Engineering. There are two career paths from there. One is to continue on to an advanced degree in engineering (Swarthmore produces a sick number of future PhDs in Engineering). The other would be to go directly into the corporate world on a management track. The combination of an engineering background and strong communication/analytical skills from a broad liberal arts program is a good one.</p>
<p>2) There is a lot of overlap between Stanford and Swarthmore because Swarthmore draws so heavily from California.</p>
<p>3) As far as "being challenged enough", Swarthmore is generally regarded as about the most difficult academic undergrad program outside of the tech schools (MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, etc.). Obviously, you can carve out a pretty demanding track at any school. However, on average, Swarthmore is really demanding and the students choose it for that reason.</p>
<p>4) Which would someone pick? Stanford or Swarthmore? Swat obviously focuses exclusively on undergrads, so you won't have TAs, professors who are preoccupied with their R1 research grants, etc. However, if you are interested in a narrow field (like Medieval Belgian History) or if you are unusually advanced (like genius level math), then you could run out of courses at a smaller school and need some grad school courses. That's a concern only for small minority of college kids. It's like the comparison between a small prep school and a large magnet high school. The actual courses are probably more individiualized at a prep school, but there are more of them at a large magnet school.</p>
<p>Of course, you also have to factor non-academic issues. Like whether you prefer a small, tight-knit community or a larger, more active campus with Division I sports. And, West Coast versus East Coast is a pretty significant difference as well.</p>
<p>A lot of academics would probably suggest a place like Swat for undergrad and a place like Stanford for grad school as an optimum path academically. That may be why so many kids of college professors are at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Right now I'd be happy if I got into either!</p>
<p>yeah both are great schools, I just have to overcome my attraction to pretigious names before spring ;)</p>