<p>Does reactionary really mean that? I thought it just meant like, saying things especially to get a reaction. Huh, missed that one.</p>
<p>"Dcircle, it seems to me like the only way you would be happy with a conservative speaker would be if they didn't have strong views of their own."</p>
<p>That's awfully presumptive, Aequitas. It is not the fact that he is a conservative that I have a problem with. What bothers me is that his views on race and colonialism trivialize the marginalization of ethnic groups and ignore the consequences of social stratification. It bothers me in the same way Harvard president Lawrence Summer's comments on women in science bother me. From their positions (a post-colonial immigrant and the leader of a major research university respectively), their self-indulgence is irresponsible.</p>
<p>Having heard him speak twice now, it seems to me that many of the positions he takes are purposely chosen to draw attention and be striking. He's a smart, and eloquent guy and now he's found a niche as some kind of celebrity pundit. He gets paid to draw ire.</p>
<p>"About colonialism, Dinesh D'Souza made a very interesting point: Did the British intend to make Indians' lives better? No. Did his grandparents like the British? Absolutely not- they despised them. But would Dinesh be where he is today (noted scholar and advisor, ivy league degree) if the British had never established schools, roads, businesses, trade, or a gateway to the west? His answer: probably not. So you see, he doesn't justify colonialism as being good -intentioned, but as having positive benefits in the long run. "</p>
<p>This does not seem like an interesting point to me. It's a complete tautology. Colonialism is beneficial because those who are colonized will be forced to assimilate more quickly into the dominant colonialist culture. Who's to say what Dinesh would have been doing?</p>
<p>To clarify: I do not in any way condone the questioner from the ARA, or the people at the Richard Perle lecture who wouldn't let him talk, or the people who stole the BDH's after the Horowitz add. I too was disappointed with Seymour Hersh's lecture. I honestly do support bringing more conservative speakers to campus. But I would appreciate hearing from speakers who have accountability--such as actual policy makers. This year we've heard from Howard Dean, Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, and soon Bill Clinton and Max Cleland. How about John Ashcroft, Bill Frist or Newt Gingrich?</p>
<p>Aequitas,</p>
<p>Enjoyed reading your post...also enjoyed your admonishment to conservatives to buck-up and consider Brown (counter-intuitive, but interesting). However, I thought you were a little hard on dircle. In either case, glad you posted.</p>
<p>dcircle, </p>
<p>articulate defense, especially the "Who's to say what Dinesh would have been doing?" line. Good point. However, do you really want to see intellectual light-weights like Ashcroft when you could have excellent minds like D'Souza, whether you like his politics or not? I give it to Brown for inviting him.</p>
<p>"This year we've heard from Howard Dean, Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, and soon Bill Clinton and Max Cleland. How about John Ashcroft, Bill Frist or Newt Gingrich?"</p>
<p>....and which one of these is intellectually interesting?</p>
<p>I heard Jesse Jackson speak last year and was not impressed much. I've yet to hear a really good speaker, actually.</p>
<p>When I was at Brown William Casey spoke. Might fit dcircle's criteria.</p>
<p>i actually think ashcroft, (when he's not singing songs about eagles) is an incredibly smart guy. i also think it would be a fascinating talk--he's responsible for some of the most controversial policies in recent memory--anyone remember the patriot act? there could be entire debate about the meaning of privacy.</p>
<p>another great choice might be condi rice (when she's not busy being secretary of state and all) or powell (what's he up to these days, anyway?).</p>
<p>J.S. Mill, the father of liberalism, said that the truth, unattacked, quickly becomes dead dogma. I might not have much in common with D'Souza, but he reminds me why I am a liberal!</p>
<p>The first statement is one of tolerance, the other is an opinion. They're not contradictory. He's agreeing with D'Souza's right to come and speak while disagreeing -- although not eloquently -- with his views.</p>
<p>I personally was one of the event managers for the D'Souza speech, and I can honestly say it was a great success. We worked very hard to bring D'Souza to Brown, and it was only through President Simmons and the ISI that we were able to make it happen. (And the token $50 from the Third World Center, they aren't biased right? They finally gave money to a non-leftist cause! Hah.) We received a huge amount of praise for bringing D'Souza to campus. He was widely regarded as a great speaker, many were surprised how good his talk actually was. He was also treated very rudely during the question and answer session. One student actually interrupted D'Souza in the middle of his answer to her question to say, "I don't want a history lesson." Another called D'Souza a white supremecist, sort of ironic no? </p>
<p>Aequitas, great post. As a libertarian, I can say that brown is not going to be welcoming of any non-leftist viewpoints. You will be abused in ways you never would have thought possible. Come stick it out though, as Aequitas said it is a very valuable experience and its worth it. Most of the students here are going to graduate with their heads still in the clouds, and no idea how to deal with people how they disagree with. Its their own fault, for completely shutting out other viewpoints. Thankfully, Simmons has begun to make good on her promise to aid in intellectual diversity. Non-leftists, please come to Brown. Join students for liberty or the college republicans, and help **** off the lefties. I promise you, we'll take good care of you.</p>
<p>GHBrown08 and Aequitas</p>
<p>Great job in supporting speakers like D'Souza at Brown. As the parent of a Brown student I'm pleased to hear that the Brown community is at least mildly tolerant of views that don't fit into the PC left wing mold. I am disappointed that some students were rude towards D'Souza, but unfortunately that goes with the territory when your views lean to the right. Anyway keep up the good fight. When you leave the confines of the academy, you will realize that there are lots and lots of people who think like you do.</p>
<p>It is not good form to be rude to an invited guest; the goal of the liberal arts approach should be a spirited & civil debate on the merits of a position. However, it is important to note that some of the most derisive and nasty political commentary comes from right wing sources, like Fox & Rush Limbaugh. I believe it is a mischaracterization to label liberals as less tolerant than conservatives.</p>
<p>SBmom</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree. With regards to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh I'm not sure what your views of them has to do with students being rude to Mr. D'Souza. I think the most derisive and nasty commentary is coming out of the mouths of people on the left. So what? People on the left think the right is derisive and people on the right think the left is derisive. My only point was that speakers at our more illustrious institutions of higher learning who lean to the right regularly have to deal with rude students. I don't believe that speakers whose views are liberal are subjected to that same treatment. I'm sure that you can cite anecdotes where liberals were treated poorly. I just don't believe it's anywhere near what conservatives have to deal with.</p>
<p>browninfall,</p>
<p>well said. It's specious to compare the behavior of students at an elite university with the behavior of entertainers trying to lure in an audience and sell product. One has nothing to do with the other.</p>
<p>Curiously, when a liberal speaker is invited to Brown, have conservatives behaved in the same ill-mannered fashion as the above mentioned liberals did when DSouza spoke at Brown? </p>
<p>Also, if conservatives were to behave in such an ill-mannered way, would it be tolerated?</p>
<p>Again, I make no excuses for rudeness. </p>
<p>People should let each other speak, listen courteously, and disagree civilly. High emotion should not prevent this, and in fact one usually wins more converts this way than by yelling or stepping on the other person's words. </p>
<p>A family member of mine used to run lecture tours to colleges, and I assure you that conservative and liberal students alike can become enflamed by speakers with whom they disagree. It was fun bringing Ollie North & Kennedy to liberal campuses, as well as bringing Woody Harrelson & the Indigo Girls to conservative campuses... </p>
<p>Clearly, though, the majority of college-aged kids are liberal so the majority of "intolerance to different views on elite campuses" may be from liberals just on the numbers-- though perhaps it would not be true on a percentage basis. </p>
<p>Kalidescope, I am glad you recognize that Fox is entertainment, not news. Too bad so many people get this wrong.</p>
<p>BTW, when William Casey spoke there was a group of protesters who rose and recited "The Jabberwocky", which was quite an event on campus.</p>
<p><em>Sometimes</em> "rudeness" is like Bette Klarsfeld's slap-- a form of free speech.</p>
<p>Why should the Brown community tolerate the rudeness shown to Mr. D'Souza regardless of whether or not it's a form of free speech? Are all forms of free speech acceptable at Brown? What would happen if a Brown student stood up in a class being taught by a faculty member of Indian descent, rudely criticized what the faculty member was saying, and then called him a white supremacist? What would happen if a student hollered at President Ruth Simmons during a speech she might be giving and called her a racist? Should it be tolerated? Would it be tolerated?</p>
<p>browninfall, </p>
<p>I have twice stated my position on rudeness.</p>
<p>What do you suggest Brown do, expel a heckler?</p>
<p>No, what I'm suggesting in response to Kalidescope's question is that I certainly believe that different people get treated differently for doing things that are really quite the same. I'm sure that a student who called a faculty member a white supremacist or heckled Ruth Simmons and called her a racist would be treated severely and harshly by the Brown community while those who verbally abuse Mr. D'Souza are treated as if their free speech rights are being denied if somehow one tries to rein them in.</p>
<p>I think Brown pretty much subscribes to the "sticks & stone" rule, whether a it is a liberal or conservative student who has mouthed off. </p>
<p>College isn't cotillion; debates happen; tempers rise-- it is unfortunate, but it is relatively rare.</p>
<p>I'm not referring specifically to liberal or conservative students per se. I'm referring to behavior towards conservative or nonconservative speakers. Some rudeness would be condemned by the community - other rudeness is another day in Providence.</p>
<p>Listen, you have a student who is at Brown, I am not there, so I am not in the loop about this particular incident-- I am basing my comments on when I was a student at Brown and what I remember about the frequency of/tolerance level for this sort of thing. In my four years there I recall only one similar event, when William Casey spoke (at the beginning of the lecture about a dozen kids stood and recited The Jaberwocky-- a nonsense poem "Twas brillig and the silthy toves did gyre and gimbel in the wabe..." ) </p>
<p>It was a <em>major</em> news event at Brown; discussed a great deal in the BDH-- the students who did it definitely came in for plenty of criticism (and, yes, praise as well) and I think there was even some disciplinary action. </p>
<p>That protest was not name calling or heckling; nothing personal was said to Casey-- instead it was a verbal protest/performance art/mini-civil-disobedience that lasted about 3 minutes and was designed to illustrate that Casey/the CIA was masterful at "obfuspeak."</p>
<p>I think the Casey incident was more defensible (creative, symbolic); sounds like in the D'Souza incident the kids were being brats and using name calling or scorn rather than making a convincing civil argument.</p>
<p>But I assure you that when I was there, Brown was not a place where obnoxious behavior was encouraged or tolerated, no matter what the underlying political point of view. I would be surprised if this sort of thing happens very often at Brown.</p>