Contextualizing the SATs

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
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<p>In another thread - the one where I answer your questions about whether you should be worried about if we've received your materials (the answer is "No") - I was asked this question:
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I was also wondering...how much does Tufts weigh SAT scores? A person with a 1340 ish math-and-verbal SAT score, but with a disadvantaged background---low income, first generation, rural area (though not minority, but Asian, rather).... how would you view this SAT score? Does being "Asian" and having "lackluster" SAT scores mean terrible, ominous things? Haha, that's certainly the impression that reading this forum gives me, and it's slightly nerve-wracking, truth be told!

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<p>I'm answering in a new thread because there are important points raised by Ragged (the post's author)that I'd like to address. I won't explain myself perfectly, but I know the community will be understanding and appreciative of my belief that the admissions process works better with transparency. </p>

<p>We do contextualize the SAT scores based on background, but that is primarily a socio-economic and geographic concern, not a racial one. </p>

<p>To help explain why we do this, I'd like to ask you to think of standardized testing as a race. The intuitive thing to do would just be to measure how long it takes everyone to finish the race. Better testing = better time, so you can directly compare times and know who's the faster runner, right? Not so. The problem is not everyone is running the same race. Some people run uphill, some people run downhill. A person who runs a 10 minute mile uphill is probably faster than a person who runs an 8 minute mile downhill. Speed, viewed in absolute terms, can be misleading. </p>

<p>Still with me? </p>

<p>If you live in certain areas of the country (you know who you are) and come from a background of success, then you are much more likely to have taken the PSATs, SAT prep classes, or have otherwise been exposed (or overexposed) to the SAT. If you live in rural Montana, or inner city Baltimore, or will be the first in your family to college, for instance, then the likelihood of you having that depth of understanding of the SAT is a good deal lower. The reality is that your life circumstances will probably effect your ability to effectively navigate the test. The extent to which this is an admissions factor will vary from applicant to applicant, and what we do is nothing like, "Oh, he's first gen... add another 50 points to his score," but there is value to understanding the context of your life, and we would be foolish to ignore that. </p>

<p>I'm looking forward the discussion that will likely follow, but I will not engage in a argument on whether or not this is fair or if this is the right thing to do. Partly, this is because I know this is the right thing to do, but mostly it's because I don't like to argue on the internet. If you have an opinion on the justice/validity of this, feel free to post, but please don't post with the intent of engaging in that debate directly with me (though I won't mind if others respond in kind). I'm happy to clarify anything you feel I've missed, and I'd love to hear your responses. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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<p>I have no connection to Tufts (d is not applying there), but was curious about your post....The only thought that comes to mind is that 30+ years ago when I was the first person in my family to attend college, not one school even asked for that information...In addition, few colleges required essays and I didn't even realize that this was something to note until I started following CC.....That being said, I think you have handled the question with clarity...The only thing I think I would add is that the assumption that in a particular geographic area, all students would have similar preparation may be slightly askew, even within the same high school population.....</p>

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<p>DanAdmiss@Tufts, I have a question. In my family, we have taken the position of not taking prep courses to prepare for exams. We can afford the courses, but feel our children should be self sufficient enough to accomplish needed scores on their own. Is it wrong to assume that if we live in an area where prepping is usually standard, we are actually hurting our children, because it will be assumed their scores were achieved with extensive coaching and therefore not their "real" scores. As a parent, I feel that the best preparation to ensure success in college is to figure certain things out on your own before you leave home. Thoughts?</p>

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<p>Taking a prep course and understanding the SAT are not the same thing.</p>

<p>Personally, I think prep courses are overrated and mostly unnecessary. Familiarity, on the other hand, makes a BIG difference. The prep classes provide a highly structured setting to get to know the test, but most (if not all) of that can be accomplished with a reasonable prep book. </p>

<p>What you're doing is good - and you shouldn't feel the need to give that up. Self sufficiency is important, and having that as a goal is not at odds with effective preparation and familiarity with the SAT. Knowing how the SAT is scored helps, knowing the format of the test helps, knowing little tricks to eliminate the wrong answer helps. Your children will benefit if they discover those nuggets of info (and others), but a prep class isn't necessary to do that. </p>

<p>Plus! Were I a parent, I would be much less interested in that SAT score than I would be in raising a competent, balanced, productive future adult. It sounds to me like you've got some healthy priorities.</p>

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<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>Thank you Dan for starting a thread about this issue. We also live in an area where the norm is multiple test prep courses and application coaching. (I have to say that most who engage in this do well in the admissions game.) I also hope it won't be held against my D that she refused to take these courses or get coaching, since we are from that demographic. She's in the midrange of scores for Tufts, but at the low end. (And yes, I am a proud parent of a bright and talented young woman who is happy that my D did the best she could on her own!) </p>

<p>One thing that did impress my D about Tufts was the opportunity to submit additional information and essays. She had the sense that while Tufts expected good test scores; the supplements offered her the opportunity show who she is as a student beyond her performance on the exams.</p>

<p>Another question I’ve had, but been a bit reluctant to ask, is how do admissions committees view applicants that have overcome traumatic illness and events that had an affect on grades and test scores in subjects like math (medication affected her ability to focus)? She never asked for any special assistance from her school or from the exams…I couldn’t get her to, though she would have qualified. Would the college want information from her doctors? Would they ask for it if they wanted it? FYI - she’s fully recovered now, no longer on meds and math grades are much improved!!!</p>

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<p>Hey Dan! Thanks for answering my question in such depth.</p>

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<p>As I have written elsewhere on CC, my opinion on this topic is mostly aligned with Dan's. Socio-economic background should be taken into account to an extent, race should not. Can anyone argue with a straight face that Richard Parsons' or Stan O'Neil's kids (if they have any) will be disadvantaged at any point in their life? I do have a bone to pick about geographical preferences, though, because they are a bit like race --- often but not always a proxy for socio-economic status.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this discussion is a bit like the abortion debate - with some notable exceptions people mostly agree about the two ends of the argument, but get worked into a tizzy in the gray area. Who is disadvantaged? Why is someone with parents with only HS diplomas a first generation, but even if one of the parents had some community college in the middle of nowhere they are no longer 1st gen.... the possibilities are too many to even fathom.</p>

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<p>Since you guys mentioned 1st generation, I have a question. Neither of my parents graduated from a college in the US, but my mom graduated from a college in a foreign country (but her degree isn't recognized here). Does that make a 1st generation student or no?</p>

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<p>Actually GG, I would consider an associates degree from a community college to be within the broader spectrum of a first generation college applicant. Of course, this is in line with your point about Gray Areas, and is why we try to be so careful with context and reading applications for depth - and part of the reason we ask for supplemental writing. </p>

<p>One isn't caught in a binary system of 'Advantaged' or 'Disadvantaged'. As you noted, there are infinite degrees of both. Degrees that we consider thoughtfully. KJCastillo - you'd might fall into somewhere on that spectrum, though it's impossible to say for sure without knowing all the specifics (which isn't necessary on these boards).</p>

<p>As for using geography contextualizing the SATs - there is a real reason for that. I traveled in Montana this year (great trip!) and it became clear to me that upper-middle class families rarely send their kids to test prep; it just isn't part of the culture. Contrast that with suburban Connecticut (where I also traveled), where test prep is part of many high schools' curriculums. Obviously, this isn't true in all cases, but it does provide relevant background. In this example, this has nothing to do with socio-economics, but rather the level of attention that the college admissions process receives in general.</p>

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<p>This may be a bit off topic, but it sort of frustrates me that certain colleges weigh a score earned on just one test more heavily than other kinds of intelligences like creativity. (Side note: thank you Tufts for letting me express myself creatively in my application!) I understand my score a rough approximation of my general mental ability, but I hate feeling like it defines me. Some people simply do not test well, regardless of their socio-economic background or race. I wish more colleges could understand that.</p>

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<p>I like the SAT. It allows me to express the sort of split-second decision-making that I excel at, rather than relying on my ability to write a prodigious number of long and essentially similar essays to prove my worth as a scholar. Anyone can write a decent essay given a week. Not everyone can do the sort of quick reading and elimination processes that are required to excel on the SATs. On the other hand, it irks me that, because I'm from a wealthy area, that my scores would be seen as less impressive, despite the fact that my family could not afford SAT prep courses, I never used any, and I barely cracked the SAT book before taking the test.</p>

<p>Though I must agree with Anna: the essays for Tufts were certainly my favorite to write.</p>

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<p>
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As for using geography contextualizing the SATs - there is a real reason for that. I traveled in Montana this year (great trip!) and it became clear to me that upper-middle class families rarely send their kids to test prep; it just isn't part of the culture. Contrast that with suburban Connecticut (where I also traveled), where test prep is part of many high schools' curriculums. Obviously, this isn't true in all cases, but it does provide relevant background.

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<p>Dan, does this mean that because we live in an area where most kids use test prep courses and my daughter didn't, that her test scores will be viewed in the context that it is assumed she had test prep? She did well, but not close to the near perfect scores that the kids with prep did.</p>

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<p>I think test prep tends to be overrated. None of the kids I know at my school that got really high scores (2300+) took test prep courses. My impression of test prep is that it teaches you some of the stuff actually being tested (math, grammar, vocab, etc) and some of the basic skills that come naturally to some people.</p>

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<p>2forcollege - not really. </p>

<p>The context would be that your daughter has a level of familiarity with the SAT - she isn't entering ignorant to the way it works and how it is scored. The sort of casual familiarity that brews when everyone you know is also taking the SAT. Of course, even this belief can be amended for first-gen applicants, recent immigrants, or any number of other context relevant factors. I intentionally used rather extreme examples above to illustrate the importance of contextualizing by geography - if I can see SAT prep on your daughter's transcript, for instance, it's fairly safe to assume she's had test prep. But again, that's an extreme example that sounds like it doesn't apply to you.</p>

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<p>We don't live in Montana, but as with Dan's experience there, there really are no SAT prep courses where we live. No one does them, not even the kids with the super-excellent scores. At most kids might take a few practice tests from a prep book -- and I do think doing that can help a lot -- but the whole industry around college admissions (courses, private counselors, etc.) just does not exist here. Like Dan said, it's not in the culture. In fact, the general anxiety around college admissions among parents and students is not much of a factor like it can be in other places where it's seen as a great crucible. We do see kids go to some great, great schools, but not in big numbers. It's just different here, kids put their applications together on their own without much guidance, and they often mess up when to schedule their SATs, ACTs, getting their rec letters out. Still, they do okay, but I'm sure their "whole package" looks quite a bit less glossy than kids from areas where there's more sophistication about the process.</p>

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<p>Joshuatree - you are exactly correct.</p>

<p>Though, personally, I love the 'less glossy' applications that come from the kinds of places you described. So many of those applications are filled with a sense of open, honest, raw, and occasionally untapped intellectualism. Kids take bigger leaps in what and how they write, and describe themselves with a deeper sense of who they are - perhaps because their environment never teaches them what's 'risky' in a college application (a good thing, I believe). </p>

<p>Nevertheless, your description is exactly what I was trying to explain; but I hasten to add that you did a better job.</p>

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<p>I'm glad you like those less glossy apps, Dan. And evidently it's not just you. This year in particular we've had a lot of great results for kids in the ED round with one acceptance each to Stanford, Brown, UPenn, Amherst, Carleton, Pomona, and Dartmouth (and some other wonderful schools like Reed and Whitman and so on, but less selective than the first list.) I mean, when you consider this is under-populated Podunkville, that's a pretty impressive result. A couple of the kids are homeschoolers, the rest public high school. So admissions officers out there are definitely giving our do-it-yourselfers a fair shake in spite of the lack of gloss. :)</p>

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<p>Folks were asking, so...</p>

<p>Bump!</p>

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<p>What if someone just isn't a good test-taker though?</p>

<p>I'll be honest, I did prepare for the SAT. I'm not from a disadvantaged background or anything like that, but my problem is that I'm not a very good test-taker. At all. I get extremely nervous and worked up, sometimes forgetting even the simplest things. Sure, I did improve my score each time I took it, which I bet was mainly just due to get more familiarized each time, but I still didn't end up with a score that I wanted. I'm just wondering how much weight test scores are put into a person's application? Especially when the applicants transcript, essays, and ECs are great. Will a lower score (I'm talking ~650 in each section) hurt really badly?</p>