Continued decline of the public university

As state universities have been given less money my state legislatures they have to come up with new revenue streams. Tuition increases must be approved by boards of governors who are hesitant to make huge changes quickly. The tactic of many flagship schools is 1) to increase the number of out-of-state students who pay higher tuition and 2) seek donations from alumni and parents.

I have less concern for U of M, UVA, UNC, etc than the lower tier state schools that gives more people the opportunity to have an affordable, quality education.

"https://public.tableau.com/profile/publish/SHEFInteractiveStateData/AbouttheData#!/publish-confirm

In 1990, VA spent $7,886 per student when enrollment was 211, 007. Call that $1.66 billion.

In 2014, VA spent $4,779 per student when enrollment was 318,166. Call that $1.52 billion."

Are these constant dollar figures for a 24 year period correct or not? There was a decline during the great recession. Which is completely expected. But not by much and it is coming back.

How about CA for the same period?

  1. $9168 per student for enrollment of 1,141,287. That's $10.45 billion.
  2. $7509 for enrollment of 1,511,300. That's $11.34 billion.

In constant dollars, is $11.34 bigger or smaller than $10.45?

State Us are pretty much like most other govt entitlement programs. Easy to pay for when costs are low and people using the benefit are few. Much harder to pay for when costs are high and the number of people accessing the benefit increase.

Like other entitlement programs (health care, SS), the structure and financing for State Us has had to change a lot. It will have to change even more. It is naive to think that today’s big expensive State U can be funded the way the mom/pop State U of decades ago was funded.

The story is that the overall state funding for State Us has maintained more than cut over the years. But the states can’t or won’t continue to greatly expand their funding. But the State Us continue to expand on their new funding model. But they haven’t really dealt with their costs – which they really need to.

@northwesty, the very dataset you link to undercuts your claims. I downloaded the data to get a quick look at it, and for the 48 states listed in the data,* 44 of them (including California, contra what you write above) show a decline in state funding from 1990 to 2014. That’s 92% of the states with available data reducing funding for their public colleges.**

So why, then, do you keep saying funding has actually been maintained or increased?

  • Note to the folks who make maps like this: Alaska an Hawai'i have been full-fledged partners in the union for 55 years—learn to deal with it, and start including their data, too, please.

** The exceptions: Illinois, Nebraska, North Dakota, and Wyoming.

"How about CA for the same period?

  1. $9168 per student for enrollment of 1,141,287. That's $10.45 billion.
  2. $7509 for enrollment of 1,511,300. That's $11.34 billion."

These numbers are from the dataset. Please tell which part is not.

You’re misreading the numbers. If you look at the definitions page, the actual numbers to look at are those which are adjusted for, among other things, the enrollment mix—so yes, you can get enrollment and appropriations per student from the map, but that isn’t giving you things like FTE, which is an important number for this. Taking those adjustments into consideration, you get the 2014 California constant-dollar state funding level at $7.51 billion, compared with 1990’s $9.17 billion. (No math needed, either—it’s simply presented as is in column E of the spreadsheet.)

Maps are most excellent for presenting data in a clear way, but it’s always good to download the underlying data and poking through that if it’s available—basically, the map gives interesting data, but not all of the data needed for this discussion.

Here on CC, I kind of think opinions will tend to skew in one particular direction, so thought I’d recount the VA college president who (I thought) was oddly hostile to the “middle- and upper-class” kids who attended “his” college, telling them often how they were uniquely privileged (leavened with a certain amount of contempt in his voice) to attend an institute of higher education on the backs of people who had no chance of ever attending, or their children attending, themselves.

While he went too far (in a nutshell, seems his notion was the college should be used to educate poor students, for free, and the middle-class could go to private schools elsewhere), there is a fair point to be made.

How far do we go to make college “affordable” for the children of the educated and wealthy, (how many non-athletic “poor” students do you really think gain admission to UVA?), when much of it is done on the backs (via taxes and reduced services) of families who’ll never attend, or hope to?

DFB – this is right from page 19 the most recent report of the SHEEO.

They say exactly what I’ve been saying. State support only dropped during the recent recession. Otherwise, no cut in state funding for the last 25 years. Peak support was 2009 at $84,730. 2014 was $83,533. So almost back to the all time peak of 2009. 2014 support (in constant dollars) exceeds 1989 support.

State universities just got bigger (50% enrollment increase) and more expensive (big big increases in budgets and tuition). Their aggregate state funding really didn’t get cut much or at all.

“Over the last 25 years, total state and local support for public higher education grew 123.0 percent
in unadjusted terms, from $37.5 billion in 1989 to $83.5 billion in 2014. Adjusting for inflation,
constant dollar total state and local support grew 7.9 percent over the same time period. From
1989 to 2014, FTE student enrollment grew by 49 percent, from 7,473,599 to 11,137,541.”

http://www.sheeo.org/sites/default/files/project-files/SHEF%20FY%202014-20150410.pdf

So I am late to the conversation.

I was in high school in Texas in the early 80s.

I was having dinner with some other high school parents as our kids were having an honor society dinner and found a father who had gone to UT. I had to ask if he attended UT back when tuition was $4/hour. He said yes as he attended from 82-86. Once you included fees, school cost was under $300/semester. He didn’t realize how good he had it.

The tuition tripled in 1986 or 87 from $4/hr to $16/hr due to oil prices being low. This was the tuition cost for every in state university.

I didn’t benefit from the low tuition as I went to a private school.

For some, the good old days were very good.

“How far do we go to make college “affordable” for the children of the educated and wealthy, (how many non-athletic “poor” students do you really think gain admission to UVA?), when much of it is done on the backs (via taxes and reduced services) of families who’ll never attend, or hope to?”

There is a big problem with this statement and that is it assumes that somehow the children of the educated and wealthy are going to these schools (especially the flagships) and enoying a free ride. There was an article not long ago in the NY Times when they pointed out, for example, that UVA was seeking kids who might go to an elite school, trying to make it elite, because many of those kids would be paying near full freight, and because of budget cutbacks from the government, the full tuition and room and board at these schools has often risen to be that of many private colleges.

One of the things people forget is that with tuition, even at full freight (paying the full tuition and/or room and board), that it doesn’t cover the full cost of educating that student (thus if let’s say the tuition is 30k, that doesn’t cover the real cost of educating that student), so almost everyone is subsidized. More importantly, by having the well off kids and the kids from educated parents at the school, who likely are paying full freight or near full freight, it means the school can give more money in financial aid to poor kids, since the pool they have available is fixed. If my kid pays the full tab, that means money that if I was of limited income that would have gone to my kid can be spread among kids who need the money, if my S would have gotten 25k in aid, maybe 5 kids would get an additional 5k a piece, making the school more affordable.

The real problem, if that article was correct, is that a lot of state schools are not using the well off kids to help recruit underprivileged kids, but rather are using them to try and turn the state U, especially the flagships, into bastions for the well off, rather than using the rich kids to subsidize the poorer ones, they are in fact displacing them, and that is a problem. Among other things, because of budget cutbacks and not keeping up with the real cost of education (during the same time that the let’s say the state in that 25 year period went from 10 to 10.5 billion on higher ed, inflation existed, probably making the real value even less than it was 25 years ago,but more importantly, was at a time period when the cost of college was skyrocketing, public universities saw the same rise in costs that privates did (on a percentage basis), but the state didn’t make up the gap, which means the schools are becoming less and less affordable to those of modest means, not only did the tuition skyrocket, but aid dropped, both from federal and states.

As far as why should states help pay for higher education, unless one is of the ignorance is bliss crowd, the answer is obvious. Well funded state research universities are responsible for bringing well paying, high tech jobs into an area, just ask folks in the research triangle around UNC or the area around Austin, for example, and then take a look at the states whose state university system is rather starved, and see what the lack of those kind of jobs and businesses in their own state is. Put it this way, if the state seems to put more emphasis on the football teams than on the education side, it is likely you won’t exactly see a biotech corridor or a silicon valley around them (there are exceptions, of course, U Mich is an outstanding research university that has a big time football program, UT Austin likewise is both)

@Squiddy Former UVa President John Casteen helped launch AccessUVa in 2004 . https://news.virginia.edu/content/university-virginia-launches-accessuva-fundraising-campaign , to address lower and middle class access to UVa. AccessUVa is available to both instate and out of state students. Of course, UVa, like many flagships, still has plenty of wealthy students.

@musicprnt Do you have a link to this New York Times article that mentions UVa? The only one I can find is from May by Kevin Carey ("The In-State Tuition Break, Slowly Disappearing ") and UVa is not mentioned. UVa is mentioned in followup comments though ('Readers Turn: The Rat Race of College Competition). Unlike many other flagships, UVa has historically drawn many out of state students (such that by law now OOS students cannot comprise more than 1/3 of the student population-and many Virginia residents would like to see that percentage be even lower). Google University of Virginia historical out of state percentage. Enrolled numbers of 1st year students at UVa:
2015 2460 IS 1214 OOS
2005 2140 IS 972 OOS
1995 1857 IS 1019 OOS
1985 1657 IS 1068 OOS
1977 1499 IS 1005 OOS

A top-quality public flagship research university is a driver of economic growth and worth investing in, but too much of the population and politicians are blind to that.

North Dakota has been an exception for the last few years in public university funding. That is because the state was rich with oil revenues. I’d expect big cuts soon in their funding, because of the crash in oil jobs and investment. North Dakota was actively trying to encourage out of state students, because they had lost so many of their young people over the recent decades. It is not the most pleasant climate, and until recently did not offer many professional jobs.

Again, it’s very misleading to use aggregate data for the entire country. Here are some examples from the SHEEO data set.

State appropriations to public higher education, nominal dollars:

Michigan
2000 $1.988 billion
2014 $1.670 billion
Net change: -$318 million (-16.0% in nominal dollars)

Ohio
2000 $2.054 billion
2014 $2.028 billion
Net change: -$26 million (-1.3% in nominal dollars)

Wisconsin
2000 $1.067 billion
2014 $1.076 billion
Net change: +$9 million (+0.8% in nominal dollars)

Virginia
2000 $1.410 billion
2014 $1.688 billion
Net change: +$278 million (+19.7% in nominal dollars)

California
2000 $7.892 billion
2014 $10.259 billion
Net change: +$2.367 billion (+30.0% in nominal dollars)

Texas
2000 $4.540 billion
2014 $6.853 billion
Net change: +$2.313 billion (+50.9% in nominal dollars)

Illinois
2000 $2.239 billion
2014 $3,826 billion
Net change: +1.587 billion (+70.9% in nominal dollars)

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, cumulative inflation between 2000 and 2014 was 37.5%. So measured in real (constant) dollars, Michigan slashed state aid to higher education by somewhere around 50%. In Ohio and Wisconsin, where nominal appropriations were essentially flat, inflation ate away roughly 37.5% of the purchasing power of the state appropriations, so those are also deep cuts in real terms. In Virginia and California nominal appropriations rose, but not as fast as inflation eroded the value of those dollars, so those also represent real cuts. In Texas and Illinois, on the other hand, state appropriations rose dramatically, not only in nominal terms but in real terms.

It makes no sense to say everything’s fine because increased appropriations in Texas and Illinois offset real reductions in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Virginia, and California, because the increased appropriations in Texas and Illinois don’t help schools or students in the other five states one bit. And of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the fact that with increased enrollments in most of these states, public universities have been forced to spread those dollars over growing student populations.

ETA: SHEEO uses a slightly lower higher education inflation factor of 31% for the 200-2014 period, so using their figures the real reduction in Michigan was only 42% and in Ohio and Wisconsin closer to 31%, but otherwise my comments stand.

According to https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-known-for-generous-financial-aid-but-low-share-of-students-in-economic-need/2014/02/10/d7d1ebb8-925d-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html , about 12% of UVA’s students in 2011-2012 received Pell grants (which are available to students from lower and lower-middle income families). This is quite low in comparison to other public universities. The VA publics which enroll the highest percentage of Pell grant recipients in 2011-2012 were VSU (67%), NSU (67%), ODU (32%), and VCU (29%).

As I noted, UVa has addressed the economic diversity issue but it still has quite a few wealthy students. It is selective and smaller than many other flagships. The 4 Virginia publics you mention with a higher number of Pell Grant recipients are among the least selective Virginia publics. VSU and NSU are HBCU’s . ODU and VCU are less selective schools in urban environments . All probably have a fair amount of commuters (unlike UVa, Wm & M, and Virginia Tech).

BC –

The data says that the aggregate level of support for public colleges in the U.S. in 2014 is higher (in constant dollars) than it was in 1989. Based on what you read all the time, most people would say that could not possibly be true. But it is true.

Sure some states have gone down, but other states have also gone up. But I never see a story about state support increasing.

The real story is that the state money did not dry up (which is what most people think). The primary story is that the state money mostly stayed, but that the universities massively jacked up their costs and prices. The universitities continued to consume state money at their historic levels, and then also consumed a lot of additional federal money and student money that became available. The secondary story is that the number of people going to college also increased.

The story is that costs got big.

So why do you keep claiming that state appropriations didn’t decrease (in real dollars)?

@northwesty, the costs have gotten even bigger at elite privates (which have increased enrollment far less).

No top-tier research university is going to be using computers and lab equipment from 2000 right now if it hopes to remain top-tier, and frankly, the top applicants and their parents are going for those schools that spend a lot. People bemoan the high costs and rapid increases in higher education, but when push comes to shove, not very many of those who have the resources to be able to choose are opting for a no-frills lower-cost college over a college that spends a lot.

Not sure if computers are the best example, since today’s computers are probably less expensive, but have over 100 times the CPU speed, memory, and storage, compared to those one could buy in 2000.

Looks like this is true, the way that people here look down on commuter schools, community colleges, and other schools that may not have the best “college experience” as choices to attend only if nothing else is affordable.

" No top-tier research university is going to be using computers and lab equipment from 2000 right now if it hopes to remain top-tier, and frankly, the top applicants and their parents are going for those schools that spend a lot. "

Maybe not 2000 but what about 10 year old updated Dells?

“Looks like this is true, the way that people here look down on commuter schools, community colleges, and other schools that may not have the best “college experience” as choices to attend only if nothing else is affordable.”

Some schools spend oodles but on the wrong things. They build amazing sports arenas and swank dorms but neglect academic resources intended for undergraduate instruction. These same schools have immense research labs that are used for research but the resources for teaching are piss poor. One SUNY school now has so many swank dorms and has neglected academics for so long it has to bus students to the local CC cause there are too few classrooms to accommodate students. they want to fill those dorms. But they failed to update classrooms. So they accept students that will fill the swank dorms and they bus them to CC. it is not like they can’t find enough students who would do well at the university. They reject a lot of students. but they have found a way to fill dorms without taxing the classrooms. PC speak means they call it something else but it is obvious to all exactly what is going on.