Convincing dad about college visits? :(

College Search & Selection
1

<p>OK, I thought I had had my plan all sealed up a few weeks ago and I was planning to visit a few colleges in about a 4 day period (this Friday, the 21st, to next Monday), which is during our fall break here. I was originally going to go with another friend, but it looks like she wasn't as initially interested as I thought. I am now trying to convince my dad, who doesn't believe that campus visits are very necessary thing. Here are some the problems:</p>

<ul>
<li>He hasn't ever really made many long road trips. Trips taking about 3 hours are the max.</li>
<li>He feels that he has a tendency to get lost.</li>
<li>He says that there will be problems parking.</li>
<li>He says that visiting a campus will tell you little about a school and all you have to do is look at the course catalog ( :sigh: )</li>
<li>He has no idea where to stay.</li>
<li>I'm not really familiar with the college situation in France, where he's from, but I think that he's not really familiar with the college process here and prevalence of college visits.</li>
<li>That said, he did go here for graduate school and points out that he didn't visit the school beforehand.</li>
<li>He (and I for that matter) aren't really sure what type of ground we can cover in 4 days, keeping in mind time for sleeping, traveling, visiting etc...</li>
</ul>

<p>If it helps, here are some of the places I'd like to visit:</p>

<p>Kenyon College in Ohio
Vassar College in New York
Cornell University in New York
Barnard College in New York
Dartmouth College in New Hampshire
Wesleyan University in Connecticut</p>

<p>I am in Ohio right now. Is visiting these places at all reasonable in 4 days? I'm not planning any overnight stays. Adequate sleep is a must. I can't convince my dad otherwise. If this list is reasonable, are there any good colleges that are in this general area I've outlined? Based on my profile, I'm probably doing a lot of overreaching, so if there are places that are just on the way that I can look out, that'd be great. I also made this handy dandy map if it helps:</p>

<p><a href="http://s88199767.onlinehome.us/map.gif%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://s88199767.onlinehome.us/map.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The red spots just mark the states, not the actual location of each college :)</p>

<p>Is there any point in applying to a college without having visited it? I find it unfortunate I have to limit myself to places within driving range, and that there's a distinct possibility that I might not be able to convince my dad at all, but oh well. I also haven't done much college research. I plan to (I realize I only have less than a week), but my problem is that there are so many colleges out there that -might- fit me, and right now they are all names. It's hard to look at so many colleges and know what to look at and what not to. I feel that if I can just visit these places and maybe sit in on a class, then I can have a definite list to work with and research and then apply to. As it is now, I feel I am lost.</p>

<p>I really appreciate your reading this, as I really don't know what to do. As I only have a few days to work all this out (if I do convince my father, I have to come up with an entire travel itinerary... must you absolute sign up for college tours beforehand? at what times are they usually? I have a feeling that due to my dad's inexperience with driving out of a state that we might not be able to make real appointments. neither of us have a cell phone either, if that makes a difference.), I would really appreciate any replies that can help me figure this out soon. Thanks a lot!</p>

<p>Please excuse the long post, but I felt that I had to get all this out.</p>

<p>P.S. I do sympathize with my dad because I feel this is something he's really unfamiliar with and he doesn't like doing big things like this. I also realize it's a lot to do. It's just that I've come to believe that this is a crucial part of the college application process and I don't know that I'll have that many opportunities to do this. Just once would be miraculous. More than that.. well I just don't know.</p>

<p>P.P.S. This is really ridiculous, and it just occurred to me, but I don't suppose that there is some kind of service that does this is there? Would it just be as prohibitively expensive as riding a taxi for several days? I also considered taking the train or something to that effect, but I don't think that it would be very effective and that it would limit my travel route, giving my few days that I'll have. But if anyone has any experience with this, I'm listening.</p>

2

<p>I'm not terribly experienced in this, but I would say:</p>

<p>~Yes, college visits are very important. Vassar has a very different "vibe" from Cornell which has a different vibe from Dartmouth. To know where you would be happiest it is important to visit. </p>

<p>~No, it is not imperative (although VERY helpful) to visit before you apply. BUT it is imperative you visit before you go. So if worse comes to worse, you could always wait until you get your admissions offers back, then visit the colleges that accepted you to find a match. </p>

<p>~If you cannot visit some (or any) of the schools on your list, try extra hard to make contact. Call them with questions, talk to professors/admissions people/alumni, talk with their representatives at college fairs...really show your interest. That sort of attention is very important at many of these top schools, and it can separate those who are accepted from those who are rejected. This also provides another good point for your dad: A visit is a huge show of interest, and will be duly noted. And with schools this big and selective, a visit and the ability to really articulate what you love about the school could be what tips the scale in your favor. </p>

<p>I hope at least some of that was helpful!</p>

3

<p>Also - You will definitely have to slim down your list if you want to do this in 4 days. The drive from Dartmouth to Barnard alone has to be at least 7 hours (I live in NH, so I have some idea of distance in the area...). The only colleges within 3 hours of each other are Vassar and Barnard...everything else is a huge drive. From upstate NY to Connecticut...you are talking quite a trip.</p>

4

<p>One more thing...I just found this article on CC that you might find helpful</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/dean/archives/000039.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/dean/archives/000039.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Best of luck!</p>

5

<p>I don't think that the trip is reasonable. First, there are usually no college tours on Sun. There also are no classes then, and during your visit, you would not get a view of typical student life -- i.e. during the week day. Saturdays usually there are college tours, but no classes and, depending on the campus, few students may be visible.</p>

<p>Second -- Even if you were planning to see all of those during a week day, it would not be possible to see all of those colleges. Just plot out a trip on Mapquest.com (which will give you driving directions to anywhere in the US), and you'll see how long the driving would take. It's reasonable to spend a half day on a college campus, which would allow you to have a tour, perhaps visit a class (often must be arranged in advance) and then to walk around and talk to students and eat a meal there. Shorter visits won't give you much info.</p>

<p>My suggestion would be to take a look at some colleges in Ohio. Check mapquest for the distances. Perhaps you could see Kenyon and Oberlin and an Ohio public university so you could see the difference between a LAC and a public university. You might be able to make it to Kenyon on Friday and then drive to Cornell, assuming there's a Sat. morning tour at Cornell. </p>

<p>What's a good idea to do is to contact the college in advance about your visit. Go to their admissions web pages, which usually gives you visit info including when tours are, whether you can visit classes, whether you need to sign up for tours. There also should be campus maps and info about parking (Build in lots of time to park. Often parking is a 20 min. or more walk away from the place where tours start).</p>

<p>There's a service that you can find through Google that allows you to buy for about $20 DVDs or videos showing college campuses. These are videos made by, I think, GCs, so they don't have the biases that the DVDs that colleges make themselves have. I have heard good things about these videos. They allegedly show all aspects of a campus and include interviews with students.</p>

<p>It is possible to apply thoughtfully to colleges without seeing them. In fact, many of us parents did that for undergrad or grad school, and this was back in the day before DVDs, home videos and the Internet. I did this myself for grad school, and was very happy with my college, which was more than 2,500 from the farthest place from my home that I had ever been before.</p>

<p>You can get lots of info from guide books (I particularly like US News Ultimate College guide and web site), from web sites like CC and other web sites, and, of course, from the college's web site. If you want to call or e-mail students or professors, the admissions offices can arrange that. You need to take responsibility for your future by doing much more research than you've done. Because of the expense of gas and time, it's wise to do a lot of research before going to visit colleges. You are very late in doing this. </p>

<p>You can make trips without cell phones. Heck, everyone did that until very recently. It is a good idea, though, to get a membership in a road service like AAA in case you have a breakdown.</p>

<p>Many students wait to see colleges until after they are accepted. Then, they fly on their own to see the colleges. Most colleges have weekends for accepted students, and the students stay in the dorms. Learning how to travel on your own is something that you'll need to do if you plan to go away to college. After all, you probably woudn't expect your parents to drive to and fro to get you for holiday visits, for example.</p>

<p>As for your dad, my understanding of the French university system is that virtually everyone goes to the university that's in their hometown or that's near their hometown. They live at home or in apartments. The kind of college experience that we have here -- dorm life, lots of clubs, etc. is not the experience in France, where universities focus only on academics. Consequently, students don't shop around for universities like we do.</p>

<p>Is your dad aware of the costs of universities here? My understanding is that in France, the universities are free, and as long as you have passed your "bacc" exams, you are guaranteed entrance. Make sure that he understands the costs of universities here. Have him use a financial aid estimator like the one on CC's home page. You don't want to apply to colleges and then have a nasty shock when your dad says he can't afford it.</p>

<p>I strongly suggest that you get a financial safety -- a college where you know you'll be accepted to, know you can afford, and know you'd love. For most people, their financial safety is an in-state public university.</p>

<p>Also talk with your GC and get her suggestions. If you have friends who are in college, talk to them about their colleges and how they made their decisions.</p>

6

<p>Ohio - Cornell 6hrs
Cornell - vassar 4 hrs
Vassar - Wesleyan 2 hrs.
Or Vassar- Dartmouth 4hrs./ Dartmouth- Wesleyan 3 hrs.
Wesleyan - NYC 2 hrs
NYC- Ohio 8 hrs</p>

<p>Directions: Mapquest and/ or AAA
Motels AAA
tour schedules, lodging suggestions- campus admissions offices</p>

<p>Can't do it all because schools are too spread out. On our trip we saw 2 colleges per day, but they were closer together than yours.</p>

<p>Suggest bagging Kenyon for another time.</p>

<p>Dartmouth is far. Very inconvenient now, and will remain inconvenient if you choose to go to college there.</p>

<p>Maybe try to weed out some of these, or prioritize them lower, using available info.</p>

7

<p>Wow, I really appreciate all the candid advice :) I think I just needed a wake up call and to stop whining. Obviously my inexperience is showing.</p>

<p>My unfamiliarity with the logistics and everything it took to do interstate trips made me try to bite off more than I could chew. I'll just try and answer various questions/comments in pieces:</p>

<p>As for researching extensively, applying, then flying over sounds like an very reasonable method of attack. I have done research and read articles and descriptions and have talked to people, but I feel so far that my research is superficial and that I need to be a bit more focused so I can look at course catalogs, look at the departments of things I am interested in etc... Again, my ignorance is showing, but are these acceptance weeks all during the same time? If you are accepted to multiple colleges, is it feasible to visit more than 1?</p>

<p>I've heard about the campus videos thing. Is it 20 dollars per video? If so, that's a bit steep, but I'm sure they're all over ebay. I'll definitely check it out.</p>

<p>As for a good financial safety, I have that covered :) I'm just looking at my options and seeing if I can get some more places interested in me.</p>

<p>I have been talking to a lot of my college friends here (although I've been given the impression that a lot of people slacked off and just did everything the day before [I'm not planning on doing that :)]) and it's been enlightening when it comes to the process and different places they've considered.</p>

<p>Now, the reason is that I am currently taking one college class, and the college has a break next week (I'm hoping this isn't some universal college break; I've looked at a few college sites, and it doesn't seem to be). It's a class in which if you are 1 day behind, it's hard to keep up, and 2 days behind you should consider yourself in grave danger. These are the instructors words, but they're true :) So I was planning on leaving this Friday afternoon to get started as quickly as possible. I did so badly on the first one, but I'll propose a second plan:</p>

<p>Leave this sunday afternoon and then use however many days I need. I'm in a public high school that's not very rigorous, but I don't want to take the whole week off. But then taking 4 days off might be just as pointless since I'd only have Friday. I'll deal with this part myself.</p>

<p>Take this week to do extensive research. Next week go to New York and visit Vassar, Barnard, and Cornell, and anything in between. That's it. Then I'll do as much research as I can and seek out information about other places I'm interested in. Apply. Then if I get any acceptance letters, go visit them, and then make my choice. I agree that it would be fairly pointless to drive and going way out of my way to see a school like Dartmouth when I probably don't have a much of a chance of going there, especially when the schools I'm seeing now will probably be a reach.</p>

<p>Does this sound more reasonable? Again, can anyone suggest any places in this general proximity that I might be interested in seeing? If it helps to know what kind of schools I am interested in, [url=<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1265602%5Dhere%5B/url"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1265602]here[/url&lt;/a&gt;] is my academic/personal profile. Ignore the parts about college visits in the thread :)</p>

<p>Again, thanks for the help.</p>

8

<p>My two cents are that you should make an effort to address your Dad's concerns. Know the directions cold and have all the maps, documentation, etc. Know from contact with each college where you can park. Start small first, i.e. visit pretty much any college that is a short drive from your home. This will give you experience with a college visit and with planning a trip. All of these things can address your Dad's concerns and perhaps make him feel more comfortable with taking a longer trip with you. </p>

<p>If he still resists, then you'll have to apply without first seeing each college. Worse things could happen; in fact, I did that and it worked out fine. In that event, continue to learn as much as you can about each college, and apply to those places that seem best. And, from a financial perspective, an extra few application fees, and the purchase of some of those DVDs mentioned by Northstarmom, will cost far far less than a lengthy trip to visit colleges.</p>

<p>When I look at your posts as a parent, I get the feeling that perhaps you should consider taking a little more time to prepare before you ask your Dad to go on a potentially long, expensive, time-consuming trip.</p>

9

<p>My advice is to go first to whatever college is closest. I am assuming that's Kenyon since you're in Ohio. Arrange a visit through the admissions office. Include an overnight in a dorm if that's possible. Visit a couple of classes. Have an interview. Talk to professors. Go to a club meeting. Take the tour. Do everything that the adcoms will allow you to do.</p>

<p>That long experience will give you a much better idea of what you like and dislike in a college experience. That alone should help you select the colleges to apply to.</p>

<p>For instance, S's first college visit was to Johns Hopkins. We did the tour. We hung out on campus. We talked to lots of students. Every single student said that Johns Hopkins is very competitive and stressful. S is laid back, and loves supportive environments. He realized from that one trip that he could cross off from his list any college that had a reputation for being stressful, competitive, grade-conscious or where students had little time for ECs because they had to spend so much time studying.</p>

<p>With the cost of gas, motels, etc. it is far more expensive to visit colleges than to order the DVDs that I referred to. Presumably, your dad also would have to take time off from work, and that time may be more useful later, when you have a better idea of what colleges interest you or when you need help moving into college. More reason to start by visiting colleges that are close.</p>

<p>Noticing that you have Vassar and Barnard on your list, I'm wondering whether you have considered Oberlin, which is similar in that it's artsy and intellectual. If you decide to add it, you could confine your trip to it , Kenyon and Cornell.</p>

<p>With a dad who (understandably to me) doesn't relish the idea of doing so much driving and with the time and expense that's involved, it makes more sense to me to narrow the visits to colleges in Ohio and near Ohio. Save the NYC/Conn. visits until you see where you are admitted.</p>

<p>Also, if your dad is not comfortable with directions and driving, he doesn't need to have to drive in NYC nor does he need to pay the high prices of housing and food in that area of the country. Such an experience could make him insist that you not apply to those colleges because he may so dread having to transport you to and fro at the beginning and end of the school year.</p>

<p>How much of the driving do you plan to do? Such college trips are a good way for students to get highway experience and to learn in a supervised environment how to handle the situations that they'll eventually have to do an their own anyway once they become adults.</p>

<p>One last thing: Make sure that you're seeing match and safety schools. You can always see reach schools after being admitted. When students are applying to places like Ivies, their odds of admission are not high. Instead of spending your time and your dad's money and energy on examining reach schools that you may not get into, spend your time looking at places where you are likely to get accepted to. </p>

<p>You need to make sure that you have chosen safety and match schools that you'd enjoy attending and that your dad can afford. Your safety and match schools also are likely to care more about demonstrated interest -- visits -- than reach schools like Cornell would care. In fact, places like Cornell tend not to track demonstrated interest at all.</p>

10

<p>I'd tend to agree with Adad's last paragraph, except that perhaps a time window where both of you are available for a trip like this may be hard to come by. Just make sure you use the [your dad's]time wisely, and do everything you can to make the trip go smoothly.</p>

<p>There is a wealth of information right where you are, if you can access it. There are people who have applied to all of these schools (well maybe not Dartmouth so much), have friends at them, have visited them, etc. There are students there who transferred from some of these schools. If you speak up you may be able to get tons of input from them.</p>

11

<p>By the way, for what it's worth I did a trip like this with my daughter. We flew to the start destination, and rented a car from there, then flew back. Yes it was expensive. I do agree that visiting is very hepful.</p>

<p>My daughter actually found much value from overnights, which she did only to her two finalist schools after being accepted. But these trips, and some of the later visitations, she did by herself without me. It just became ridiculously expensive, time consuming, and ultimately pointless for me to accompany her to all these places.</p>

<p>The problem with waiting for acceptances is that you only have a limited time then to start making visits, and you may have other commitments that interfere.</p>

<p>It's news to me that places like Cornell tend not to track demonstrated interest. I thought they did. I doubt that they'd hold lack of visitation against someone who lives six hours away. But I for one don't really know.</p>

12

<p>In looking at Syn's back posts, I found the below in a thread Syn posted titled, "No idea where to go" and posted September 27 of this year.</p>

<p>"Quote:
If you would consider a women's college ( don't just dismiss the idea!),
Bryn Mawr or Mount Holyoke migh suit you very well--BM especially for Classics/ nice dorms and MHC for beautiful campus.</p>

<p>Colby College also has an attractive campus but is a whole lot colder than CA. "</p>

<p>Syn's response:
"Erm.. I forgot to mention that I'm a guy Thanks though."</p>

<p>My comment: Syn, you need to do LOTS more research before applying and before spending time traveling to colleges. For instance, Barnard, which is on your list, is a WOMEN's college.</p>

<p>Another Syn quote:
"Finances: Through my father, the college will pay for half the college tuition, but I'm not sure how it works exactly... As in whether they cut off half of the listed cost, and then it's decided how much I can pay; or if it's decided how much I have to pay, and then the college pays half of that. Is this commonly done a certain way? Or should I talk to the college? How does the fact that I live only with my father with a low salary, about 25,000 a year affect costs? Will it hurt or help me? Will I simply be piled on with loans? This is one area in which I'm very confused."</p>

<p>Money is a BIG issue for you and your father. You need to find out exactly what your father's college will pay. Also, you need to realize that your father's low income means you will have very high financial need, and that will hurt your admission chances at the many colleges that are need sensitive when it comes to admission. </p>

<p>Your first priority needs to be finding colleges where you know you can gain acceptances, would love attending and CAN AFFORD! If Oberlin is where your father is working that may be your best choice as being a faculty kid will help you gain admission. You also may be able to continue living on campus without having to pay dorm fees, which can add a great deal to the costs. </p>

<p>With a $25,000 salary, your dad does not have the $ to drive you all over to visit colleges. Even with good financial aid, it may be unreasonable for you to go to college far from home. It would be expensive and difficult for you to get to the colleges and you would not have the $ to do things like go home for long weekends. </p>

<p>Where is your mother? If she is employed, even if you don't live with her, colleges will expect her to pay part of your college expenses. This will be true even if she doesn't want to do that. For you to get need-based aid, you also will need financial information from both parents.</p>

<p>Your gpa: 3.68 (unsure if this is weighted), rank 13 of 84, and SATs 720, 700, 730 are OK, but not so exceptionally strong that you'd be high on the list for merit aid from the top colleges that offer merit aid. Your being an American citizen who's half French, half Filopino does not give you any URM tip.</p>

<p>Your ECs -- NHS, some school Jeopardy team, playing violin in school orchestra are unremarkable for the top colleges. </p>

<p>Your junior year courseload was lightweight, not appropriate for the most competitive colleges:
Junior Year:
Adv. Art II: B
College Prep Chemistry: A-
Advanced English 11: A
French 3: A
Orchestra: A-
Physical Education: B
Pre-Calculus: A+
Weightlifting: B</p>

<p>I am not sure what Ohio offers to its top students, but I strongly suggest that you spend lots of time examining colleges in Ohio because that's likely where you'll find the colleges that will be affordable. You are fortunate that Ohio has a wide range of good colleges to choose from.</p>

13

<p>scratch dartmouth off your list , the 21st starts homecoming weekend, no classes on friday, no tours it is going to be overrun with alumni and visitors. If your father was an alumni, then he would catch up with friends and it might be worth the trip</p>

14

<p>Northstarmom: I realize I have a lot work to do, what I get out of it depends on how much I put into it. If come acception/rejection time I'm not happy with what I get, then that'll be on me. I'm trying to shoulder a lot of things right now in an environment that doesn't seem to be all that worked up about colleges. At this point all I can do is work, research, and then hope for the best. Again, I'll answer things in pieces:</p>

<p>Going to Oberlin is a distinct possibility; I'm not ruling it out. I also have the advantage of attending the local high school, where they offer scholarships and favor the students in terms of acceptance. I don't mean to be too full of myself, but other students from the high school have gotten in with simply lesser grades/scores/activities and who don't have any other connections to the school. I am not at all taking for granted that I have a good chance at getting in, but I feel that I should at least try reach a little bit higher, if I even have the remotest possibility of acceptance. I realize that most people applying to my reaches are far better qualified than I. I'm not expecting nor will I be devastated if I don't get into a top 50 school. But if I have the chance and have worked hard in school (harder than some of my peers that got into Oberlin), then I don't think it would hurt to apply to some other places.</p>

<p>I realize cost is a big problem. I will have to see what colleges offer me and then decide from there. As far as paying for the trip, despite my dad's low salary, we don't pay for much. Housing, internet, and food is all provided as part of his benefits package. Neither of us are particularly extravagant when it comes to spending, so we do have a decent amount of money for things that come up. As for my mother, she passed away when I was six.</p>

<p>My GPA isn't weighted; and I didn't think that I would receive any minority status, but I just wanted to make sure.</p>

<p>About my participation, I realize that it is very little, but all I can say is that I will take greater advantage of what is offered at wherever I decide to go. Each time I've taken the initiative to start something new, I've enjoyed it will take it further in college. Also, I've drafted up an extracurricular list and I think it's a least a bit more comprehensive than my short list.</p>

<p>About my Junior-year courseload: The problem is that I had taken all academic classes in my freshman and sophomore years. Kids generally take their required P.E. credits in their freshman year, the first in the first semester, and the second in the second semester. I was therefore forced to include both of them in one semester my Junior year, as I needed to fulfill those credits. They were actually one after the other: 1st period and then 2nd period.</p>

<p>My Senior-year courseload is much more loaded and I have worked harder than any of my previous years—and I'm keeping up. I have Adv. English 12, Ancient Greek at the college, Physics, and Orchestra the first semester. I will continue all these classes next semester and take on two extra school requirements (government and a social studies credit) as independent studies. I need to finalize my independent studies; if I don't, then I have to drop Greek next semester and take the two courses in school, which isn't the end of the world college-wise, but I want to continue Greek. Had I understood that the Junior-year is much more regarded over Senior-year, then I would have tried to move over my required P.E. classes to Senior-year and taken Calculus/Physics in my Junior year. At this point, however, there's not much I can do.</p>

<p>Ohio does have a lot of great schools and I will definitely take the time to research them and to apply to them.</p>

<p>Like I said before, I will do my best, and do my research; maybe it will work out, maybe it won't. And again, I do appreciate your frank advice; anything else wouldn't be helpful.</p>

<p>P.S. Regarding the initial topic :), I have always had the option of going on a college trip next week with a friend who'll also be seeing Cornell and some other places. I initially disregarded it because a lot of the other schools I never really considered, but I think it might be a good idea to check out some of the places he's applying, and maybe convince him to see some of the schools I want to. I showed my dad the DVDs and we'll be ordering some. I'm keeping a positive outlook.</p>

15

<p>dartmouth to vassar would only be a three and one half hour drive. it would take about an hour and a half to drive from vassar to barnard.</p>

16

<p>Did you know that Oberlin is one of the country's best liberal arts colleges? It's ranked #23 by US news, and accepts only 37% of applicants. I have the feeling that because you live there, you may take it for granted. </p>

<p>I agree with you that you have a good chance of getting in. Faculty kids are at an advantage at most colleges. </p>

<p>Vassar is ranked #13 for LACs. Kenyon is ranked #32 for LACs, Wesleyan #12. Cornell is ranked #13 for national universities, but has very little in common with the other universities on your list, which tend to be very artsy and also are much smaller. The exception is Dartmouth, which has similarities to Cornell, in terms of having lots of jocks and being, I think, more conservative than the other schools on your list.</p>

<p>My thoughts are that you might want to dump Cornell and Dartmouth, which I don't think have the atmosphere that you're looking for. You could add Swarthmore (#3) and Haverford (ranked #8) as reaches and Bard as another alternative. Bard is ranked #39. Being male will help you with LACs since it's hard for LACs to attract males, who often want to go to big sports-oriented colleges.</p>

17

<p>WOW, 7 hours from Dartmouth ot Barnard????????? Yeah right!! I drove the exact drive in 4 hrs this past weekend, the longest it has EVER taken is 5 hours. Plus, Wesleyan to Dartmouth is less than 3 hours. Also Dartmouth is NOT conservative (over 80% Kerry in 2004), and there are plenty of Vassar like people. Also, its nothing like Cornell, Dartmouth more than anything is community focused, the frats are very different than at other schools. Where else does the entire campus get an email about all the parties + other events on campus. Its an absolute LAC, with so much more in common with LACs than with a school like Cornell. Its a school worth taking a look at, so many people fall in love with it when they visit. </p>

<p>I recommend adding Brown to this list if you can. I think you will like it as well.</p>

18

<p>yea, I wouldn't rush taking Dartmouth off your list. A good friend of mine was waitlisted at Wesleyan this past year, hesitated a bit before going to Dartmouth, and now seems to be enjoying it immensely. Dartmouth's a big LAC with lots of niches; conservatives make a lot of noise there, but, I wouldn't call it a conservative school.</p>

19

<p>"Dartmouth is NOT conservative (over 80% Kerry in 2004)"</p>

<p>It's all relative. I would guess that this % would make it considerably more conservative than some of the other schools that have been mentioned.</p>

<p>One thing about LACs, and LAC-like universities, is the ability to customize your environment to an extent; to be among a higher concentration of similarly-minded peers than you will ever be in again. Most of these schools have identifiable, stereotypical dominant campus cultures. Several of the schools mentioned seem to me to be quite similar. Dartmouth to me seems somewhat different than most of the others. More pre-business & Wall Street, for one thing. More sports-oriented. More in the Williams mode than the Vassar mode. Not that they don't have people there doing all sorts of things.</p>

<p>Cornell, on the other hand, is a large university consisting of a hodgepodge of numerous undergraduate and graduate colleges, all with different missions and objectives. You will be among people who are vastly different from each other, aside from disproportionally coming from New York. You may relish this diversity or you may hate it. But it is different from the other places in this regard.</p>

<p>In my opinion/impression, at least.</p>

20

<p>Monydad, I think you have an outdated view of Dartmouth. Sports aren't that big, there are many different social scenes, and while there are many wall street kids a majority are absolutely removed from this. Its changed significantly in the past 10 or so years.</p>