convincing daughter about UMass

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Massachusetts - Amherst
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<p>My daughter is a junior at a top public HS and seems to be only interested in "name-brand" colleges (many of these are certainly no better than UMass) for no other reason than what other classmates say. We are trying to get her interested in UMass Amherst but she is dead set against it - again, for no specifc reason (other than saying it is ugly). She's a good solid B student, but probably not good enough to get substantial tuition breaks at more expensive schools. She is refusing to even consider attending if she is accepted. We are quite certain much of this is due to the fact that many of her peers at school look down at UMass Amherst and view it as last resort, which is ridiculous.</p>

<p>We find this to be very frustrating because (1) our finances will likely require attendance there, and (2) UMass Amherst is an excellent school in an excellent college town - nearly everyone we know who attends loves it there.</p>

<p>Any advice on how to handle this other than making the decision for her?</p>

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<p>Tell her what you are willing to pay for college (my guess would be the COA at UMass Amherst). If she gets enough aid at other schools, she can go there. If she doesn't, and can't come up with the difference on her own, she goes to UMass Amherst or takes a gap year.</p>

<p>Can one of those "everyone we know" folks also talk to her about their experiences at the school?</p>

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<p>UMass Amherst is not the only UMass college in the system. Depending on her interests, perhaps one of the other state schools would be a better choice. </p>

<p>I'm from MA, and I know the stereotypes that I hear from the kids:
-"Zoo Mass" - big, and a party school
Just dumb kids go there
Middle of nowhere, nothing to do</p>

<p>Try to find out what her concerns are - if she's interested in being a more urban setting, there's UMass Lowell and UMass Boston. </p>

<p>If she's not willing to share her concerns, then going the path of explaining what your contribution can be is the way to go. "We can afford X. Let's look at what it would cost to go to UMass, XXX, YYY, and ZZZ". Ah the sweet logic of reality.</p>

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<p>The stereotypes you mentioned are interesting because UMass is certainly not a place where dumb kids go (the average GPA is 3.5 or so) and certainly not in the middle of nowhere (Amherst is a pretty cool college town). And it is no more of a party school than any other large state university. But indeed, these are the stereotypes many people attribute to this school. The parents of some of the kids in the more affluent towns also perpetuate these ideas - I hear this kind of thing all the time. When we mention we are strongly considering UMass Amherst for our child, some of these parents just politely nod and then change the subject. Some say right out loud that they would never send their kid there. We find this attitude to be very repulsive. The kids of some of these parents would not even be able to be admitted there in the first place. I'm amazed by how many parents we know who would borrow money against their home and spend their retirement money on a mediocre private university rather than send their kid to UMass Amherst. This is really crazy when you compare the costs of UMass ($18K) against a private university such as Northeastern ($46K) which is certainly no better, and perhaps not as good. Many of the programs at UMass are very highly ranked (engineering, pre-med, business to name a few).</p>

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<p>I think that your logic is very reasonable. Unfortunately, UMASS Amherst gets a bad rap because so many people in Massachusetts don't use it, because it's way underfunded and the physical plant there is in rough shape, and because it keeps putting retired politicians (Bulger, Meehan) in high positions so that they can boost their final state salaries and maximize their pension payouts. As a result, it's not taken as seriously as perhaps it should be. The "Zoo Mass" reputation doesn't help much either. It's also very large and some people just feel more comfortable at a smaller campus. </p>

<p>I think that maybe there is some middle ground between UMASS and expensive privates. The State University of New York (SUNY) schools, while they may not necessarily be any better are only a litte more expensive even with OOS tuition, maybe $2K more if that. They offer a variety of urban/suburban or rural campuses and a variety of sizes. I'm actually surprised that more people from Massachusetts don't consider them because UMASS is quite expensive in-state compared to most states, NY is quite inexpensive OOS compared to most states, and the two states are right next door to each other. Unlike Massachusetts which has a single flagship, New York has a number of very good schools, but none that is universally considered a flagship. They also have some public liberal arts colleges that are probably better than anything comparable in Massachusetts. She may be able to find a campus with an environment that she likes and would be happy to attend. </p>

<p>There are other great out-of-state deals in other parts of the country.</p>

<p>Also, may private colleges give a lot of financial aid simply because otherwise they wouldn't fill their class. You might scour the CC archives and find some that give good aid for B students. </p>

<p>Perhaps if she had more choices she would either find something she likes better within a reasonable budget, or see that UMASS is the best among them.</p>

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<p>If your daughter does not want to attend college in Massachusetts, you can get a tuition break at other colleges in New England if they don't offer a specific major in the state. </p>

<p>Tuition</a> Break Database Gateway</p>

<p>UMass isn't for everyone especially with all the red tape that occurs on campus, but it is becoming increasingly more competitive every year as more people want to come here.</p>

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<p>BTW - when I mentioned the stereotypes, I wasn't agreeing with or condoning them, just reporting what I hear.</p>

<p>Another advantage at UMass Amherst is that you can take classes at the other schools in the consortium. Don't know the details, but probably someone here does.</p>

<p>And as for the "middle of nowhere" one, it depends on perspective. My d. looked at another school in the Amherst area, liked it, but didn't like the setting. It helped her understand that her preference was for a more urban setting, if she could get it. So for some, the area is a "lively college scene" and for others it seems more "pocket of activity in an otherwise rural area". </p>

<p>Maybe spend a couple of days in the area, get a feel for it. It's certainly a beautiful area.</p>

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<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I used to have an account on this web site when I was deciding on a college a couple years ago. I felt like visiting this site and came across this thread and thought I would give you my two cents.</p>

<p>I am a junior here at UMass-Amherst. I was under a similar situation as your daughter when it came to colleges. I was not 100% sure what I wanted to study (I'm an engineering student here at UMass) and so I applied to a wide array of universities.) Now, I got into far more "prestigious" colleges than UMass-Amherst: Yale, Georgetown, and WPI. I usually hate telling people where I was accepted because people will always ask me, "Why would you ever go to UMass over these schools?" However, I am really happy with my decision and I hope my story will help your daughter realize it is a good school to go to.</p>

<p>There are some definite benefits of UMass. For one, going to a big university has a huge amount of pluses. There are students at Amherst college paying $50k/year yet always take at least one course a semester at UMass. Why? Because there are so many interesting classes that you just cannot find at a small university. Also, if your daughter has not chosen a major UMass would be a great place to go simply because they offer so many. They even have something called BDIC, which is where you can make your own major at the university. UMass is also a COLLEGE town unlike so many of the other schools out there. There are five college campuses in the area and the students literally run the town. Without us Amherst would be another small ho-hum town in Western Mass.</p>

<p>If your daughter is favoring engineering I would also strongly suggest here. Everyone comes here with the fear of huge classes where you don't get to know your professors. That is true for the introductory courses. For classes such as General Chemistry, General Physics, MicroEconomics, or any other course you could think of there are usually a couple hundred people in the class. However, at least for my major, I've gotten to know every professor in the engineering department I've taken a course with. On top of that, the professors I have had are really good. They make the classes stimulating and exciting. They are always available and know everyone's name. On top of it, I've gotten so many internship offers after only 2 years, far more than friends I have who are engineering majors at schools such as Carnegie Mellon, etc.</p>

<p>Along with that I was accepted to ComCol out of high school. I would say that it is something useful. Now that I've taken all my introductory courses freshman year all I really have to take are engineering and ComCol classes which are all really small. They are very enjoyable and very thought provoking classes, although you really don't take that many. And even if your daughter does not get accepted straight away out of high school, if she wanted to do it then all she'd need to do is get a 3.2 GPA her first semester there and they would accept her into the program.</p>

<p>I will admit there are negatives for sure. For one, my transition was a hell of a lot easier than that of a lot of my friends because I was accepted to these 2 programs right away. I automatically got advisors and was already part of a small community within the large university. If your daughter isn't sure what she wants though it is easy to get lost. My friends who came undecided chose classes on their own. Also, at least for me, I've found the classes that I take to get rid of my Gen-ed requirements as pretty easy. It depends on the course naturally, but there are a few courses out there that people take to boost the GPA. </p>

<p>The reputation UMass has is annoying. Coming from a well off town in MA all my friends looked down at UMass. Some people have said comments like, "I thought you were smarter than that" or just talk a lot about the party scene. However, there really are a bunch of really smart people there. I have plenty of friends who scored over 2000 on their SAT's, my friend from high school has a GPA of 3.9sumtn and is a double major and has had many internship offers, another is a computer science major with a high GPA as well and took 5 AP classes his senior year of high school. Is there a party scene? Are there some not so bright people? Yes, but that can be found at so many colleges. But there are plenty of really smart people as well here. Also, where you live is a huge factor. "Southwest" is the huge party area. I live in "Central", which is a lot more relaxed and it's nice to not have to hear music at 4 am on a Tuesday night which I know can happen in Southwest on a regular basis.</p>

<p>On top of it, the smart people I've found here are just like the regular person you see everyday. When I went to Georgetown and Yale for accepted students I saw so many people with popped collars and everything. At WPI I saw a lot of the people I picture playing Dugeon and Dragons and those games. But at UMass it just has the feel of dealing with the people you'll see for the rest of your life. However, if your daughter likes either of those 2 things it is such a large school she'll find those clicks as well.</p>

<p>I hope this explains UMass well. There are benefits and negatives, but I have found the benefits so much better than the negatives that if I were to do it again I would still choose here (and money really didn't even play a huge factor in my decision.)</p>

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<p>Swavo,</p>

<p>Thanks so much for sharing! It sounds like I am close to the position you were when you were deciding on schools. I live in MA, and I know that everyone I talk to sort of looks down on umass-amherst, mostly because of the percieved student body and its size. However, I'm not really sure what I want to do academically, and although I've got good stats (4.0, 2160), I really don't know if I'm motivated enough to both make through my classes AND have fun at other schools I'm considering, like Tufts and Brown. It sounds like I'd be able to not stress too much about classes I didn't care for at UMASS, and focus more on figuring out what I'm interested in, and on enjoying my college years! Also, I visited and liked the area, though not so much the campus, and I'm aware that it is getting more and more competitive and respected, plus comcoll is a nice bonus. I don't want to put my family through financial hell just so I can feel good about being at a big name school, but at the same time I know all my friends will be going off to ivy's and the like, and as sad as it sounds, I don't know if I can let them "beat" me like that, even if I know I am making the right decision on the inside.</p>

<p>Do you have any more advice, experience, or thoughts that went through your head to share with me? Your first post was very insightful though, thanks!</p>

<p>Also, if it matters, I'm interested in the humanities, mostly english, and not math or science.</p>

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<p>So many thanks to you, swavo! Our son is a high school junior, and interested in computer engineering. His list started out with a lot of private schools and is slowly shifting over towards the publics. He also has to confront a lot of high achieving, status conscious friends who will only consider the “name brands”. I see that your post is almost a year old - but it was still great to read your take on the school. I hope that things are still going well for you. We plan to visit the campus in October - maybe we could look you up!
Oops - just realized that you must be graduating this spring. Well - congratulations and thanks again.</p>

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<p>It is an interesting thread though. This year’s graduating high school class was the largest in history, about 3 million.</p>

<p>To share a bit, my kids have gone and go to what the state ranks as the top academic public high school in the state. It’s a tremendous school, clearly the equal of the very expensive private school I went to. It is academically challenging and both socially and economically diverse. </p>

<p>This school has a large number of extremely high achievers. Many kids come from very intellectual families and are internally and externally driven. And the school as a whole is a success-driven, achievement-oriented culture. </p>

<p>Think what this means for college. We had 60 apply to Tufts, 40 to Wesleyan, 35 to Washington U, 35 to Brandeis, an astounding 55 to Brown and 46 to Cornell. With admission to Yale et al now a total crapshoot, the very, very top achievers are applying to most if not all of these schools, which means that 7 kids who got into Washington U may overlap with the 9 who got into Wesleyan and with the 5 who got into Yale. You can see how this process drives very good students from tier to tier of “prestige” schools. </p>

<p>It also affects other kids because now their reaches and “safeties” are harder to get into. 75 applied to Northeastern and 25 were accepted, compared to 36 of 89 the year before. 74 applied to Vermont and 36 were accepted, compared to 48 out of 60 last year. UMass-Boston (not Amherst) accepted only 20 of 50, compared to 40 of 57 last year.</p>

<p>Look at UMass. 190 kids applied to UMass from our high school and 75 were accepted. Last year, UMass took 136 of 171. Even allowing for some difference in quality from year-to-year, that is tougher.</p>

<p>BTW, the average gpa entering UMass this last year was 3.55.</p>

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<p>lergnom</p>

<p>I checked our past HS scores and for the past three years the average accepted scores were a GPA of 3.33 and an SAT score of 1265. Not low scores by any means. And UMass seemed to be even tougher to get into this year.</p>

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<p>Both of my kids (boy-girl twins) are going to UMass Amherst next year - thankfully! - as it was the only affordable option. Both of them sneered at it for most of the last year (their HS is a high-achieving one with lots of two-professional parents) and my daughter said she was “embarrassed” to tell her friends where she might end up. They applied to (and got into) several private or OOS colleges but not nearly enough financial aid to close the gap. There was a fair amount of wailing from my D (“I didn’t know we were so POOR!”) etc. but I took her for a couple of repeat visits to the campus (looked MUCH better in the spring) and met with faculty and students in the English and Theater depts. and I think that helped some. Also a good friend of hers is going to nearby Mt. Holyoke. My son is actually very fired up about UMass, after getting over Indiana’s beautiful campus. I think it will be fine.</p>

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<p>The number I gave is from the UMass Common Data Set - [url=<a href=“Assessment, Survey, and Effectiveness Research (ASER) : Assessment, Survey, and Effectiveness Research (ASER) : UMass Amherst”>Assessment, Survey, and Effectiveness Research (ASER) : Assessment, Survey, and Effectiveness Research (ASER) : UMass Amherst]here[/url</a>] - see item C12, which reports that enrolled freshman had an average gpa of 3.56.</p>

<p>Using the database - our school is hooked into the naviance system - the number from my high school is 3.33 and 1244 (out of 1600). BUT, the numbers are distorted by some acceptances that, I would bet, reflect some special circumstance - perhaps minority or athlete or something very unusual (money for sure, and maybe disability). The lowest acceptance, for example, was a 1.93 gpa and there’s a smallish group with decent grades but low scores or vice versa who were admitted and these bring down the average. (I wonder if those kids survive or if they went?) The scattergraph shows the median is close to the average, which likely reflects that UMass is a safety for many. (There are kids with 4.0 and 1500+ listed.) A few of the Ivy schools have admits listed with barely B averages and middling to poor test scores. I know some of those kids and they’re minority or major league legacy. </p>

<p>You really have to go through the graphs and other data. Some schools have shocking results. For example, MIT admitted 5 kids in the two year graphed period and, get this, 1 kid has 1600 SAT but a 3.05, 1 kid had a 3.5 and 1520 and then it gets really weird with 1 kid having a 1.59 and 825 - yes, you read that right - and another 3.27 and 825. One of my kids says the guidance counselors go over this stuff and tell them, “Now you can see who gave lots of money.” And you can see the minority admissions. And in some cases, the athlete admissions. It’s astounding.</p>

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<p>I am the original author of this thread. After months of my senior’s totally irrational fear, hatred, and embarrassment by the prospect of attending UMass, we’ve decided on attending another large state university 500+ miles away. I’m not thrilled. The school is a decent school at a lower price than neighboring out of state universities, but nothing they offer is not available at UMass. Nothing - not the social life, activities, academic offerings, rankings, quality. I view attending this school instead of UMass as a totally irrational decision.</p>

<p>My senior has been inculcated by peer groups and even school faculty at our HS (a top public one in MA) for the past year with negative information about UMass to such as extent that it is viewed it as a fate worse than death. A reason to dread the coming September.</p>

<p>Since we were going to pay the whole $20k tab per year to attend UMass, my senior will now will be taking out Stafford loans to make up most of the difference. And, no ability to come home for weekend visits, no car, and a 10 year loan to look forward to upon graduation with no prospect of parents help with paying it.</p>

<p>I am totally disgusted by what we’ve been through for the past several months. Many of the kids at our HS and their parents have created such a negative image of UMass that is almost impossible to overcome. The irony is that some of these kids who bashed UMass were either waitlisted or not admitted at all. It doesn’t matter. These kids are happy to take out loans to attend a lesser school rather than have to deal with the shame and embarrassment of attending UMass. At least it won’t be costing us more money. My senior will live with the financial consequences for 10 years after graduation.</p>

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<p>Sorry to hear that. </p>

<p>It’s not as bad in Brookline - assuming you’re not in my district. There is huge pressure to go to a private school because it means you can afford to go to a private school. </p>

<p>Funny thing is this is driven only in part by class woes. Like any school, a number of kids don’t do that well. Of those, the ones who can then afford private school - even at a huge stretch - talk up that choice, though we’ve finally realized that’s because they can’t get into UMass and thus their real comparison would be with a lower level state school.</p>

<p>It bothers me in part because we believe strongly in public school education and in the importance of good public schools. And then the attitudes switch for college.</p>

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<p>Students’ (and parents’) perceptions of UMASS suffer a lot because of the state it is located in. With schools like Harvard, MIT, Boston College, Wellesley, Amherst, Williams, etc. it is easy to fall into the mindset that the state flagship is a lesser school. That’s unfortunate because UMASS is a great affordable option for many Massachusetts kids. As others have mentioned , the Pioneer Valley and the town of Amherst are great places to go to college from a social aspect, and with the Five College Consortium (and free regular shuttle buses connecting the colleges) the acedemic opportunities are endless. I’m sorry your daughter didn’t see it that way but good luck to her OOS school.</p>

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<p>Friend’s D was accepted:</p>

<p>RPI with big money
Smith, no money
Umass, but not commonwealth college due to serious Senioritis that killed her senor grades.</p>

<p>Now Smith is showing up on the NACAC “space available” list. </p>

<p>I find it fascinating the students who can not get into UM ComColl can get major FA from RPI and admission to Smith. Now Smith is showing up on the NACAC “space available” list. Maybe more people are voting with their pocketbooks, and ditching privates for state.</p>

<p>Family dictated Umass due to financial issues - but daughter is impressed with CS dept and with the freshman program.</p>

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<p>We had a similar situation with my S. He attends a top-10 public high school in MA in a pretty wealthy suburb, and many of his friends are going to Princeton, MIT, Dartmouth, Carnegie Mellon, etc. S got into Hopkins, a bunch of top tier engineering schools, and UMass Honors.</p>

<p>His first choice was Hopkins, mainly because of the prestige. They offered no FA though, and we can’t afford anything close to $55K+ per year, so he was looking at $80K-$100K in loans over 4 years. I had him figure out what his after-tax income was going to be at graduation (an eye-opening experience, welcome to the real world :slight_smile: ), and then use a loan calculator to figure out what his payment was going to be, and what percentage of his after-tax income that was going to be (another eye-opening experience). Being an analytical type (engineering major), he concluded (with our strong urging) that it would be insane to take on that much debt.</p>

<p>He received enough merit aid from some other schools to make them affordable (he would have had a small amount of loans (< $20K or possibly even none) when he graduated), but after going to various accepted student days, he wound up liking UMass the best, to ours (and his) surprise. So that’s where he is going. He’s never been a kid who is too affected by other people’s opinions, so he is not overly bothered that he isn’t going to an exclusive private, although he was a little bummed at first. One of his friends is going there too, that made him happier also.</p>

<p>I guess we were lucky that he was amenable to logic: 1) UMass’ engineering school is pretty highly rated, either higher or lower depending on what ratings you were looking at; 2) it’s crazy to have a lot of debt out of college; 3) after your first job, where you got your undergrad is just not that important, and even for your first job UMass stacks up well; 4) if he wants to go to grad school, UMass has a good record of placement at good schools.</p>

<p>I will confess we bribed him a little too. Because UMass is so cheap (he got the Adams scholarship and a small Dean’s scholarship), we told him we’d give him a big chunk of money for a car or grad school when he graduates if he went to UMass. Not sure how much affect that had on his decision.</p>

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<p>RPI is currently only around 30% female, maybe less, so if she is qualified at all they will do what they can to get her there to try to improve the ratio.</p>

<p>If she pulls a 3.2 or higher her freshman year, she can apply to get into ComColl for her sophomore year.</p>