How do you know the back exit was safe? Have you seen the security tapes, or seen video from outside the building?
I can imagine it would indeed be a different response.
In the end, Iâd really like for ANY group of individuals to feel safe around a demonstration. The reality is groups seem to be treated differently. Some groups can protest rather violently and thatâs almost acceptable.
The police stated the back exit was safe, and escorted the college president out that exit, per news reports. Several students plus some library staff chose to leave that way.
None of this is relevant if the school pursues the interfering with library operations charge. Same result, far easier path.
Criminal assault would have been filed by the police at the time. The police on the scene have been quoted as saying no crime occurred; a prosecutor canât take that case. Civil assault claims wonât have any results because the students are highly likely to be judgment proof ( or even in debt already from student loans). University sanctions are most likely to have results, and the easiest route is often best.
1 Like
Plus a jury trial is not in anyoneâs interest in this case.
It sounds like the university and the police did what they could to keep everyone separated and safe. At 1 pm, fire alarm brought police and fire to campus. At 2 pm, reopened the library, and both groups entered/reentered the library. Assume police still on campus or nearby. The doors separating the groups were locked, one group was offered a way out and the other asked to leave.
Seems like police controlled the scene until the police (campus or NYC?) cleared the area by 3:30-3:45.
I donât see where the âlibrary studentsâ have a complaint at this time. Let the school do the review and discipline any students (and they may not all be students) they feel were violating city or school rules (disorderly conduct, vandalism, threats).
2 Likes
If there was no threat or risk of violence, then why would the police need to provide a protected escort out a back door?
âDid you order the Code Red?!â
Presumably the Schoolâs president and/or students requested it.
There havent been any reports that the students either requested/tried to go out the front entrance.
Any discussion of whether there was an actual or perceived risk of violence, and if so how reasonable such a perception was, or whether it was colored by bias or outside factors, would be the subject of a circus-like trial conducted by celebrity attorneys likely resulting in a hung jury.
3 Likes
Because itâs a false equivalency.
No one was chased.
The two groups of activists had been protesting and counter-protesting for hours outdoors WITHOUT incident. Once they moved inside the building, the college took the very sensible precaution of separating both groups physically by locking a door.
Probably neither group should have moved indoors where uninvolved students were studying.
But I agree that the college should not tolerate, and should prosecute, intimidation, against anyone!
1 Like
I donât know if posters are requesting a criminal prosecution or a disciplinary hearing by the school, but a school conducted hearing is not run like a criminal trial - thereâs actually not the same level of defense rights/burdens as in criminal trial with judge/jury. I know someone who was essentially profiled after 9/11; these students were discussing incidents in a public school space, another student walking by heard little snippet of the discussion, and filed complaint that they felt threatened/concerned; and the defending student was almost disciplined or suspended/expelled. A non profit actually intervened on the studentâs behalf. It all worked out, but itâs not like he was considered innocent until proven otherwise etc. Totally different process (administrative proceedings).
1 Like
Yes, they are different. Nevertheless, given the situation, a clean administrative decision based on interference with operations would avoid much of the inevitable legal challenges that would occur in the pursuit of other claims, where issues of race, ethnicity, religion, and bias related thereto will be brought up.
1 Like
Yes agree with what youâre saying/outlining. My statements were about someone saying âpolice should be detainingâ which implies some sort of criminal prosecution. Based on the story narratives in several links I donât see where any laws were broken.
2 Likes
âInterference with library operationsâ may also have reduced consequences, which is maybe not what school wants to pursue. If a student can potentially be expelled due to another student simply claiming they felt threatened by overhearing a calm public political discussion between other students, then certainly a school can take action against protesters who no doubt violated terms of allowed protest by harassing and pounding on the glass to the point that students were scared to leave. Maybe interfering with operations only results in limited suspension and latter can result in expulsion.
Either way, hope these kids are prepared for potential consequences of their behavior, whether that means expulsion or being blacklisted from employment. Free speech does not extend to harassing and threatening behavior towards others.
1 Like
It has the same consequences, per the code of conduct. Thatâs why I keep suggesting it.
2 Likes
If same consequences, then yeah, maybe they will go that route. It would maybe keep it from becoming âpoliticalâ which this already is.
1 Like
Interesting to me is -
some will say - what have the Palestinians done. Innocents are being harmed in Gaza and the West Bank - and I agree. I wish there was a way to separate the innocent from the govt/military.
But Iâd ask -
what has an American done - because as a Jewish American, Iâm American - that would result in someone harassing me or in this case the American students - who just happen to be JewishâŠ
This is the common thread at different times for any (pick-your-label)-American group (âAsianâ American, âBlackâ American, Queer American,âŠ), after they deal with whatever encounter related to some act/omission. Itâs not necessarily because they also happen to be (pick-your-label), sometimes itâs just because of whatever act/omission.
I (attempt) not to let âwhatever-labelâ bias me (and I probably often fail), but I definitely reject the notion (or worse: societal/career pressure) to have to presume âvirtueâ, just because of âwhatever-labelâ.
The last part is the key, though!
I havenât seen any report, that in all the hours of demonstrating and counter-demonstrating outdoors, Jewish students were being singled out that day on campus?
My understanding is that late in the afternoon, there were activists in each other faces because they were supporting opposing causes; some activists were also Jewish - but that wasnât the cause of the library stand-off?
2 Likes
exactly. Maybe what these students did is not a âcrimeâ but universities can expel students for all kinds of ethical violations and âconduct unbecomingâ. Personal intimidation should not be part of a protest
2 Likes
Itâs more than sad, itâs a flagrant code of conduct violation. Attacking someone for merely existing and being Jewish is grounds for each and every one of those âdemonstratorsâ to receive academic suspension or dismissal. If the university doesnât put a stop to it, the courts eventually will award them millions of dollars for pain and suffering. These schools are already losing money:
1 Like
Great idea - they may sue
Do we know that each and every one of them is a student? Cooper Union is a pretty small school, so it is likely that some outsiders joined in.
1 Like