<p>You said "majoring" which refers to undergraduate education. </p>
<p>I just wanted to clear up the misconception.</p>
<p>Gomestar,</p>
<p>I usually agree with you, but I have one point to make regarding the creditentials of the ARCH students. I think my daughter would compete very nicely with the majority of students walking around the Cornell campus.My daughter was accepted to Cornell AAP (Architecture). Her grades 3.99 ugpa, 4.79 wgpa all honors and APS. Test scores 33 on the ACT (35M,34R,34E,30S) SATII math IIC and Bio (700s). She is a member of three national honor societies in her school, top 3% (650 students in her class). Over 450 hours of community service, competitive athlete (national) was awarded two citations of excellence in academics from the US Senate, plus other State Academic Awards one included 12K. She also applied to seven other schools was admitted to three before hearing fromn Cornell (including Univ. of Michigan) She had to pull the other apps once she got accepted ED. Another school gave her 75K merit award, which she didn't even apply for. From the Admissions Officers that we spoke to at some other schools the ARCH students have the highest credentials (grades and scores) because of the limited enrollement programs. Not all schools require portfolios, including Carnegie Mellon. On top of this she has a killer portfolio. She has also won two State awards for Visual Art. BTW how does she compare with you when you were a senior in HS??? So please stop saying that ARCH STUDENTSat Cornell DO NOT HAVE COMPETITIVE GRADES AND SCORES. There are just fewer of them, which effects the statistics (ie means). Can you draw???</p>
<p>lol, as much as ur the man gome, that was a burnnnn. Ur daughter sounds amazing fedmom!</p>
<p>Yup she is and I'm really proud of her. I know a lot of professional architects who are talented as well as extremely intelligent : )</p>
<p>wow, fedmom1080, your daughter must be practically perfect!</p>
<p>you should be very proud of her. Her stats are excellent. </p>
<p>"BTW how does she compare with you when you were a senior in HS???"
about the same, in fact nearly identical. The same thing goes true for my girlfriend who is in the arch. program at Cornell. </p>
<p>"From the Admissions Officers that we spoke to at some other schools the ARCH students have the highest credentials (grades and scores) because of the limited enrollement programs."
"Not all schools require portfolios"
when you don't require a portfolio, you only really have GPA and SATs to look at ... NOT a portfolio that will measure artistic talent and so forth. Other schools may have statistically great students, but compared to it's other colleges, Cornell is not one of them. Cornell places huge emphasis on the portfolio. By doing this, they are looking at another imortant factor. SATs and GPA aren't looked at as heavily ... and it shows in the common data sets. Students in AAP generally have lower scores compared to students in the other colleges at Cornell. This is fact and you can look it up at the Cornell website for verification. </p>
<p>I can assure you that your daughter's academic talent going in will be among the top few in her class in arch. No doubt. My girlfriend had similar stats when entering Arch at Cornell ... and it shows as she gets and A when others in arch. get C's or B's in required non studio classes such as calculus, structures, analysis, history, and so forth while I have seen many others strugle (I'm very close to her arch. friends as well). The arch. program is extremely competitive, but not because of students with stellar test scores, but rather mostly because of pure artistic talent. </p>
<p>I should note that although students in arch generally have lower test scores, I don't consider them to be any less talented or smart. There are those in architecture that would easily get into another college at Cornell - then, there's also the bottom half that wouldn't. Artistic ability and creativity is a 100% necessity to get into the program ... a 1400 SAT (the cornell average) is not. Yet, everybody whose in the architecture program clearly deserves to be there. I'll never question this. </p>
<p>"So please stop saying that ARCH STUDENTSat Cornell DO NOT HAVE COMPETITIVE GRADES AND SCORES. There are just fewer of them, which effects the statistics (ie means)."
Well, they do though. Glance through the statistics released by Cornell. I can name off a few arch. students that would be devoured in intro econ or biology. In fact, I know a few students in arch. who failed "calculus for the humanities" - the mean for the class was a B. Do you want me to dig up the data? The fact that there are fewer of them really isn't an argument. ILR isn't huge either. I'm sure you would agree that if AAP wanted students with all great SATs, they could easily have the class - hundreds of people apply, 12% are chosen. But, they don't. They put more emphasis on the portfolio - the result is fewer 2200 SAT and 35 ACT students, but this isn't a big deal for arch. Do you think that admitting more students would raise the scores? Or, do you think it would weaken the class since vocabulary and artistic ability really don't have much of a correlation and AAP is all about the latter. </p>
<p>" On top of this she has a killer portfolio. She has also won two State awards for Visual Art."
I can assure you that this is a huge reason why she got in. Her ACT could have been a 26 and high school she could have been barely the top 20%, but if her portfolio was as 'killer' as you say it is, she still would have gotten in. Had it not been, she most likely wouldn't have gotten into Cornell arch., regardless of her scores. At Cornell, it's the professors who look over the portfolio and choose who they want in the program - not the 1 old woman who works in admissions. </p>
<p>"Can you draw???"
No, but I can argue. I'd much rather be the lawyer than the court room illustrator.</p>
<p>i really hate to flame, but this arguement is all about ego at this point. Nobody knows the ratio or curve of cornell's portfolio/academic admissions process. There must be applicants who have shakier portfolios but great statistics in the program just like there are students with shaky statistics but a very nice portfolio. If all they based a decition on was a portfolio, they wouldn't require 2 SAT IIs. Please don't waste your energy going back and fourth over this subjective topic (and using your child or "arguing skills") when it's not helping anyone.</p>
<p>Drawing is a tool that architects use to convey their ideas... you need to be able to conceptualize a good idea before any drawing talent will ever help you.</p>
<p>"Nobody knows the ratio or curve of cornell's portfolio/academic admissions process"
that guy with long gray hair with the voice of a demon and who is rarely seen without a trusty cigarette in his hand (anybody in the arch. program knows who i'm talking about ... he's the director of the entire undergraduate program) has said that they try to aim for a 50/50 ratio for portfolio to stats. This means that great stats are very important, but the portfolio carries more weight than a single SAT score or a GPA alone. It's not a person in admissions who give the go ahead for students, it's the professors. I wanted to know the answer to this question a while back (to see if it was really true, ya know) so I had my archi girlfriend who (much like I do) works with admissions in AAP for prospective architecture students. </p>
<p>On these boards, if I don't know the right answer to a particular question, I won't answer it. I don't know if person X will get in or not so I dont answer chances threads either. When I say something it's because I've most likely done plenty of research for myself. I am confient that AAP will easily look at the portfolio more than an SAT score ... and I'm not the first one to say that.</p>
<p>"If all they based a decition on was a portfolio, they wouldn't require 2 SAT IIs"
Actually, I didn't know they required them. My girlfriend never took them. But she's in the program. Weird? Also, I never said it was ALL they base their decision on, just the most important thing. </p>
<p>"Please don't waste your energy going back and fourth over this subjective topic (and using your child or "arguing skills") when it's not helping anyone."
If you look closely, there'll be some tips on what's important for gaining admission to what many consider to be the best B.Arch program out there. </p>
<p>"but this arguement is all about ego at this point."
I would hate to see people get the wrong idea under my watch.</p>
<p>Gomestar,
You didn't get the take home message. There is a range of students with scores at all the colleges at Cornell. I know a student at ILR who is a Jr and had a 1240 on his SAT1. The scores that you see posted on-line represent all of the majors including the Art majors, who don't even have to take an SATII. She got a 5 on her AP BIO exam so I think she would do fine. I know kids who are Econ, History majors and would get killed in Science classes as well or vice versa. I know a lot of lawyers who wouldn't be able to survive a science class as well as those who are patent attorneys with Ph.D. degrees in a hard core science. All I just asked you to do is to stop generalizing, because it is insulting.</p>
<p>Are there any other top-quality 5-year programs besides Cornell and Cooper Union? Because I believe all of the other top schools have long since switched to the 4+2 program.</p>
<p>what do you use to measure "top-quality?" And what makes the 4+2 programs that you're talking about "top-quality?"</p>
<p>I am deliberately avoiding ranking colleges myself or referring to existing rankings. But for the sake of argument, I mean the most-selective programs. </p>
<p>Not sure if your second question is asking why I consider 4+2 (or 4+3) programs superior, or which ones I consider superior and why. That would probably justify its own thread, at the least.</p>
<p>haha... sure... i meant the latter, i'll start a thread...</p>
<p>marsden, syracuse has an excellent program (i think #5) and penn state does also (i think #10). but those are just on east coast. USC has a 5 year program, and i think univeristy of hawaii does also. rensselaer, i'm not sure, has a 5 year program (in troy, new york)</p>
<p>just curious, do arch grads of cornell and other top schools get good salaries since its such a good program? ive heard some architecture majors get really lowball offers when it comes to getting a job.</p>
<p>"Gomestar,
You didn't get the take home message. There is a range of students with scores at all the colleges at Cornell."
No, I got it clearly. There just wasn't much of a message to take home. </p>
<p>"The scores that you see posted on-line represent all of the majors including the Art majors, who don't even have to take an SATII"
Architecture makes up about 60-70% of the student body in AAP. You would think urban planning is more numbers based as well.</p>
<p>"She got a 5 on her AP BIO exam so I think she would do fine."
Because when I think of 'the college experience in high school', I think AP.</p>
<p>"All I just asked you to do is to stop generalizing, because it is insulting"
I cited university provided statistics saying that students in AAP typically have lower scores than the other schools at Cornell according to the 25th percentiles, the 75th percentile, the mean, and the median. These numbers are available to the public, i'm not pulling them out of my ass to prove a point. You came with the argument that "yeah, well I knew this one person in AAP that did have high scores and this one person in ILR who didn't." I never said that these people don't exist, though I did say that they are the minorities here. Is this a generalization? Perhaps, but is it based on actual numbers provided by the university itself? Yes. I followed by saying I don't consider those in AAP to be any less 'smart' than those in arts and sciences. But, I believe it's a different type of intelligence, a creative one that I certainly don't have. Somebody with a 1120/1600 SAT in architecture could easily rock somebody with a 1550/1600 in the same program. </p>
<p>Take it from me, an 800 verbal score really doesn't matter much in architecture ... I have to listen to my girlfriend complain about how people just make up their own words to help extrangigate their own point. Wait a minute....</p>
<p>Gomestar,</p>
<p>Please refrain from being vulgar. Someday when you grow up you will learn that using the type of language that you put in your post above will get you thrown out of your position in the real world. It only proves your arrogance you your lack of maturity and shows that you can't handle a healthy discussion.</p>
<p>"Someday when you grow up you will learn that using the type of language that you put in your post above will get you thrown out of your position in the real world"
I understand that, and I understand that this is not the 'real world' right here. I save the clean type of debate for work or for academic papers. I'll play it dirty and use the "A word" anywhere else. </p>
<p>"It only proves your arrogance"
Using 'that type of language' proves it? I'll admit i'm quite arrogant at times, but the only time i've said anything about myself was when you asked me how my scores compared to your daughter's ... and even then I kept it as short as possible and left out all numbers. If you really want me to, I can tell you about some sweet accomplishments of mine, but I'd rather help people out here on these boards than talk about myself. You can look back at some of my posts, probably none will talk about me, my stats, or my accomplishments (the exception being explaining what i've done with research at Cornell and how it's been received). If anything, that overly long paragraph about all of your daugher's accomplishments was the only arrogant thing here on this thread. </p>
<p>"your lack of maturity"
i'll give you this one. I've work my butt off for all of my bosses, did all of the grunt work, spent 2 hours of doing research for 1 paragraph in a paper and even gave up numerous saturday nights last semester to analyze videotaped experiments to get them in on a timely manner for an important paper ... yet, I still laughed when the one kid broke wind in the middle of the experiment. </p>
<p>"you can't handle a healthy discussion."
If I change it to "pulled them out of thin air" will I get a rebuttal from you? I don't mind continuing the debate, in fact I rather enjoy them. I have absolutely nothing against you as a person (I'll gladly answer any question you have about Cornell), I just saw something that though my time at Cornell (I'm a senior now) I've come to understand as being incorrect here on this thread, so I challenged it. If you'll notice, I havn't said anything that is meant to be a direct ad hominem attack on you or your daughter. I try my hardest not to debate against the person, only the idea. </p>
<p>If you have ANY questions about Cornell or the architecture program in general, please turn to me and if I know the answer I'll share the knowledge or I'll just ask my girlfriend. That's how I ended up on these boards in the first place, and why I stick around. Ok?</p>
<p>
[quote]
just curious, do arch grads of cornell and other top schools get good salaries since its such a good program? ive heard some architecture majors get really lowball offers when it comes to getting a job.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Architecture is a rare profession in that the starting salaries at the most prestigious/famous "design" offices are often lower than that at more "production-oriented" offices. Why? Supply and demand; some people are more than happy to work for free for a Gehry or Meier or Calatrava, etc. So what you've heard is right, and if the arch'l schools published their average starting salaries for graduates, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the more prestigious schools (which tend to feed into 'design' firms) had lower numbers. </p>
<p>But you'll never see that information published (or even collected AFAIK) nor will you even see "% employed in field 6 months after graduation" because, for one thing, it would be embarrassing for the schools! </p>
<p>Of course, all of this depends on where in the business cycle you graduate. IMHO, that's as important as anything. If offices aren't hiring, it's hard, period. If they are, you're lucky and get that essential first leg up. Recent years have been good :)</p>
<p>gomestar, you need to stop analyzing all of fedmom's words. it is getting really really annoying.</p>