Cornell deaths

Parents Forum
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<p>Re post #39: I see no correlation between a singular SAT score and the feelings of hopelessness that envelope someone prior to their choosing death over life. And let’s be clear here… suicide doesn’t only occur at elite colleges. What makes Cornell unique in this situation is the sheer number of deaths this year in total. Is there a causal relationship between others doing it before you? And too… were there suicide notes left? What is behind the thinking of those who leave a note and for those who do not?</p>

<p>I agree with Dad<em>of</em>3… what kind of signs should sound an alarm? And if you know your kid suffers from depression etc, what kind of safeguards do you put in place - therapist, telling the school (what risks does this, in and of itself, pose?), and how usual or unusual are certain behaviors? I agree that discussing the details of auto deposit seems out of place, BUT… the parents bringing it up as a problem to solve is very different than the kid bringing it up. If it is the former, just contributing to a conversation because it was put before him doesn’t seem unusual at all even though he may have had no intention for it to matter.</p>

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<p>I think the reason of death should remain private. It maybe helpful if the Cornell administration could know about it. If there is any common denominator then Cornell may be able to take constructive steps to help prevent future occurrence. It is each parent’s responsibility to know our own kid and be in tuned with own kid’s issues. It is not those parents’ obligation to share their kid’s tragedy to help us with our own kid. If anyone would know for certain why young adults commit suicide, I am sure all of us would do whatever is necessary to prevent it, but unfortunately no one knows for sure.</p>

<p>When I was going through postpartum depression, my husband by going to work and leaving me at home alone with my kids was overwhelming and I thought my life was pointless. We don’t know what those kids were going through or what their mental state was, but it is private to their family.</p>

<p>If anyone’s kid is considering Cornell, and is wondering if Cornell is still the right choice, all I have to say is D1 is still very happy at Cornell after 3 years. She always said it’s a little bit of heaven on earth. A few times when I have questioned if her professors were too hard on her or not being too helpful, her response has always been, “That’s not how Cornell professors behave. They are not out to get me.” D1 missed classes because of few major illnesses and some off campus interviews. All of her professors have been more than accommodating in giving her notes and allowing her to do makeup tests or problem sets. Whenever I’ve read on CC when other parents complained about how unreasonable their kid’s professors were with missed class due to illness, I always thought about how understanding D1’s professors were when she had mono and a bad infection in her throat.</p>

<p>D1 is working hard in school, sometimes she felt she has reached her limit in her capacity to learn (real analysis class), but I don’t think it would have been any different at other top tier schools. She is happier now than she has ever been.</p>

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<p>Oldfort… I mean this with sincere respect, but how can you think that your struggle with postpartum depression wouldn’t help someone else with postpartum depression? Maybe make them feel they aren’t alone or not going crazy? That this too shall pass or get help or … on and on. This is precisely why books are written by lay people, so others don’t feel so completely alone. </p>

<p>So yes, I do think that understanding more about what is going on with any kid who has thought of taking their own life… from their point of view or the parental experience, is hugely helpful to others. I am not saying this is the forum for all the specific details of these cases per say, but if you absolutely have no experience with what a parent might look for or if, in fact, there are rarely any warning signs whatsoever, how is finding out after a tragedy has occurred, perhaps when it is far too late for it to be of any help the right thing?</p>

<p>At the support group for bereft parents … how many of those are filled with “I wish I would have known…”? I just don’t wish anyone membership in that club. Not today and not tomorrow.</p>

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<p>Interesting article, which supports the idea that Cornell’s suicide rate is nothing unusual, yet still raises some interesting points about things being a bit odd there:</p>

<p>[Rob</a> Fishman: Cornell Suicides: Do Ithaca’s Gorges Invite Jumpers?](<a href=“Cornell Suicides: Do Ithaca's Gorges Invite Jumpers? | HuffPost College”>Cornell Suicides: Do Ithaca's Gorges Invite Jumpers? | HuffPost College)</p>

<p>I think it’s clear that if there were something seriously wrong at Cornell, there would be a lot more suicides than there are. So I’m looking at the school as an ousider who is more interested in the overall environment there, rather than the suicide rate.</p>

<p>I’ve read many times on CC that Cornell is the easiest Ivy to get into, and the hardest to graduate from. Also heard lots about the dreary weather and the gorges. All of which seems like a perfect storm of factors that would warrant extra scrutiny even if there were zero suicides. </p>

<p>I mean you’ve got a lot students and their parents involved who are in the sweet spot of the prestige game (Ivy League, New York). And by all accounts, they are often (not always) at least a little disappointed to be going to the least-difficult Ivy to get into. So no doubt some arrive on campus already a little bummed out and feeling like they disappointed themselves and their parents.</p>

<p>Then pile on top of that the lack of sun, the geographic isolation, the intense workload, the large size (which by many accounts makes forging close friendships a bit tough), and the predominance of NY/NJ students who probably seem a little gruff to some folks from other parts of the country…the “degree of difficulty” for happiness would seem to be extremely high. Which would make the school a good place to pull out all the stops for trying to make it a bit more comfortable via things like physical exercise opportunities, sun therapy, trips to sunny or more urban areas, etc…not to lessen the workload, but compensate for the plethora of factors that seem to be working against it.</p>

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<p>I posted this in the Cornell forum yesterday, but wanted to add it here to the Cornell parents s well:
Just posting to express my condolences to the Cornell Community. Three losses in less than a month is tragic. And the death of the wrestler to CA earlier this year is still painful for everyone as well. Hang in there everyone, and support each other during this time of grief.</p>

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<p>Schmaltz ^^^ I could not think of a single Cornell parent that has considered their child less because of the rediculus tale which probably originated from another school within the Ivy’s. As a Cornell parent it disturbs me when I hear this message being perpetuated by non Cornell parents and highschool kids with alot of bravado who dream of Harvard, Princeton, or Yale because that would make mom and dad proud.</p>

<p>Your statement is basically saying that Cornell students are not prepared for the rigor of Cornell and that these same students are secretly wishing they had attended another school. What makes you think that ALL kids wish they were going to HPY. I could tell you that my two sons did not like any of those schools and made a decision to attend ONLY Cornell. You are failing to recognise that the beauty of the Cornell campus as well as the location is completely unique to only Cornell. It is this beauty and level of education that speaks to the thousands of students choosing Cornell.</p>

<p>Right now I can only speak of my two sons when I say that Cornell has been their dream school, from the second they stepped on the campus. They are extremely proud of Cornell and have never thought that another school could offer more in terms of academics. As I have said on another thread my son who attends MIT is looking forward to attending Cornell for graduate school. He is a wise soul that recognizes the hype of attending MIT but the truth beneath it all. Students choose Cornell because it has that special something that you just can’t get at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, Penn, Brown,etc…</p>

<p>I don’t know if you have children applying to any of the schools within the Ivy league but I would caution you to STOP saying what you know little about. Your words regarding Cornell have little meaning to the students who are getting a top notch education at Cornell. Your post was inflammatory and unnecessary especially at a time like this.</p>

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<p>I have enormous sympathy regarding the deaths, and enormous respect for Cornell. I attended some pretty decent schools (including grad school at Toronto and St Andrews), but probably at no point could I have gotten into Cornell.</p>

<p>What I was saying was let’s stand back for a minute and look at the educational landscape calmly and objectively (like if a martian were to come down and look over the scene). I think a martian would say something like “Cornell is a beautiful school, with a first-rate faculty and brilliant students.” But he’d also notice that there is an unusually high concentration of POTENTIALLY stress-inducing factors, such as the geographic isolation, the cold and overcast weather, the legendarily high workload, the large size, the gruff NY/NJ-oriented student body. And yes, the jibes that other Ivy folks seem compelled to throw at them. I can’t think of another school that has this level of concentration of such stress-inducing factors. Dartmouth is cozy and intimate; MIT has Boston one can escape into; Stanford’s weather is relatively mild and sunny, etc.</p>

<p>I guess I’m sympathetic to the situation at Cornell because I’ve experienced many of those factors, BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE. St. Andrews was insanely isolated. Toronto was insanely large and cold. Being a Boston College grad in the Midwest means I get the cold shoulder from Notre Dame folk who call BC “Backup College.” I’ve lived in the Detroit area for decades, so I know a lot about overcast skies. I lived among lots of NY/NJ folk at BC. Each of these is/was irritating…I shudder to imagine experiencing them all at once while trying to handle the academic workload for which Cornell is famous. </p>

<p>So the point I’m making is that even without the suicides, Cornell looks to me to be a place with more than its share of things that could stress out its students, and therefore it’s a place that should use every possible tool to fight back against the stress-inducing factors without sacrificing academic intensity.</p>

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<p>Schmaltz, Cornell is one of the most diverse universities in the country in terms of the types of students it attracts. Yes, there are a few who are bitter about their rejection from Harvard or Yale, but there are also many for whom Cornell was their first choice. Yes, there are some who are underqualified, but there are also many with excellent qualifications. There are even some who do not come from the NY metropolitan area!</p>

<p>My daughter is a junior at Cornell, in the College of Arts and Sciences. Cornell was her first-choice college. She was very well qualified (IB diploma, NMF). And she comes from the Washington, DC, area. She has not found the workload to be overwhelming. She has not been teased by friends about attending “Backup U.” She is not particularly appalled by the weather (the cold of an Ithaca winter is no worse than the heat and humidity of a DC summer). </p>

<p>Is she atypical? Well, yes, but then so are most other Cornell students, in one way or another. My daughter has friends from all over the United States, who are enrolled in most of Cornell’s seven undergraduate colleges. Most of them would have had no interest in Harvard – Harvard doesn’t even offer their majors. And most of them are doing quite well academically and emotionally.</p>

<p>Cornell is a very varied university, and few generalizations about it are valid. There are 13,000 undergraduates there, which means that there are 13,000 different experiences. The fact that a few have led to tragic ends does not mean that the rest of the student body is hanging by a thread, emotionally speaking. It just isn’t that way.</p>

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<p>I think it’s ridiculous to assert that Cornell students pined away for HYP but were unable to get it and that’s why they are depressed. </p>

<p>And the weather is no different from vast swathes of the northeast and upper midwest. As for geographical isolation, Grinnell doesn’t seem to have this issue.
And the “gruff NY/NJ oriented student body” isn’t any different from tons of east coast schools. Sorry, I can’t figure out what’s so different about Cornell on this regard versus any number of schools. I think these are unfortunate coincidences, and that Cornell’s landscape unfortunately lends itself to “grand” suicides.</p>

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<p>Is it the assumption that most of these deaths are specific to Engineering Majors? Perhaps re-thinking the curriculum/program (5 years instead of a possible 4) might alleviate some of the stress involved. Engineering is, after all, a very grueling major. Just a thought–prayers to all of these families. Keep in touch with your college students, parents.</p>

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<p>I understand that where our children attend school becomes personal, but I honestly don’t think Schmalz is trying to be argumentative or anything less than supportive. Hey, even my son has had a few rough weeks when it seemed the sun wouldn’t get out from behind the sun in the hinterlands of Vermont. We live in the midwest and, while cold and white in winter for sure, there are no mountains and so the sun really shines. Of course, that usually means it’s colder than usual! Point is, i understood about the light thing and bought him a desk lamp that was to combat just that. Who knows, however if he ever turns it on!</p>

<p>I think what Schmaltz was offering is that there are a combination of other factors that might lead some people to experience more difficulties, but never did he suggest it was systemic or that because they co-exist, they apply to all. </p>

<p>Just as the example of offering up a singular SAT score does nothing to speak of the general academic experience/intelligence of all students, one student’s (or a dozen) story of bliss and happiness does not negate what some others might find to be real life changers (or enders). I do not believe that Cornell is that much more rigorous than other top schools, nor do I believe the isolating nature of the campus to be a pure negative. And that is why my concerns were less about cornell specifically and more about a thought process that brings kids to their knees to end in despair?</p>

<p>As an aside… when we say that statistically speaking, Cornell’s suicide rate is not alarming, where do you find these numbers?</p>

<p>PS… I thought two were econ majors…</p>

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<p>I realize that posts like Schmaltz’s are meant to be supportive, but they leave the impression that Cornell must be a little corner of Hell on Earth. At least based on the testimony of people I know, nothing could be farther from the truth. Cornell is a world-class university that anyone should be proud to attend, and even the most callous, arrogant 17-year-old CC poster can be challenged to and beyond his limits there. It has breathtaking physical beauty in all four seasons. Ithaca is a great, fun place to be a student. People love it there, and dream of going back – a Cornell alumna friend of mine spent a decade acquiring a farm a few miles from Ithaca so she could take early retirement and move there, which she did a couple of years ago. A much younger friend practically had to be pried out of Ithaca with a crowbar when he got his degree. I know families here (i.e., not in New York) where all siblings have gone to Cornell, something that would never have happened if the older ones hadn’t enjoyed themselves thoroughly. (I know people who have loved Ithaca College, too, which has the same weather and a similar location.)</p>

<p>I couldn’t get my own kids to apply there, because they didn’t buy the “college town” idea, but the one who visited thought it was the most beautiful campus she had seen in her travels – and that included some pretty famously beautiful campuses.</p>

<p>Most of Western civilization was developed under weather patterns not significantly better than Ithaca’s. It’s hardly Devil’s Island or the Gulag.</p>

<p>EDIT: Ooops, cross-posted with everyone else; didn’t mean to pile on.</p>

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<p>Notre Dame— I am not so sure if the majority of the kids who have chosen this path have been in the engineering school. Of the recent three kids there has been one in this major. I think many of the five year programs include a work semester which I am not sure really alleviates the course work load. I also think that many kids in engineering are a certain personality type, very driven and the work can cause periods of isolation. I would only consider this a possible factor if a study was conducted on suicide among engineering students. If there are any please let us know.</p>

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<p>I am from western NY and PA… We prefer “direct” vs “gruff” … just sayin…</p>

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<p>I think if there were a confluence of things that were “common” to these incidents that the college was made aware of; the college would make appropriate changes.</p>

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<p>I think Cornell is the absolute first choice for many students- I know my kid seriously considered it (but wasn’t strongly recruited for his sport) and didn’t even look at Harvard, where he would have been recruited. Penn takes the same hits about being a “lower Ivy” and “only Wharton is good” and “everyone is pre-professional”. Penn has also had suicides but not group as tightly as this unfortunate month at Cornell. In the Nashville area, we have had a terrible problem with suicides at a nearby military base. They are frantic to figure out how to improve support for the soldiers to eliminate this. I am not a therapist, but it seems like there is SO much pressure to excel and to “man up” that feelings of hopelessness can move in and take over.<br>
The fact is, Cornell is NOT right for some students. It IS cold and isolated. I know of some students (from Texas, I should add) that hated it. The key point is that they LEFT! They were able to find a solution short of ending their lives. It is all just so sad.</p>

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<p>Here is a well considered student piece from today’s Cornell Sun. Echoes what my daughter ('11) has said. So many of these students are used to excelling. When they struggle, their identities are shocked. And just as NYU is in the midst of a vast unfeeling city, Cornell is in the midst of a natural vastness that can be overwhelmingly beautiful - or simply overwhelming.</p>

<p>Opinion
Confronting Tragedy
March 16, 2010 - 2:35am
By Steven Zhang</p>

<p>E-Mail Print
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<p>An important lesson that the recent tragedies have taught us is that suicide is not an underlying problem in and of itself, but merely a side effect. Although stationing guards at every bridge on campus is a short-term answer that addresses our recent losses, this myopic strategy is unviable and will not ameliorate our problem in the long-term. Instead, our efforts must be aimed at controlling the primary factors that lead to these tragic losses.</p>

<p>First, we must realize that the academic and social environment of our University will always push us, faculty and students alike, to our physical and mental extremes: Our University’s culture is inherently competitive and stressful. It is not uncommon to see students dedicate hours of studying towards a single prelim only to receive unsatisfactory scores — a debilitating blow to our self-esteems that is only further exacerbated when we consider our intellect a large part of our individual identity. We have invested great efforts only to receive little reward. Nevertheless, most of us are rarely perturbed by our temporary shortcomings and we come out with more tenacity and motivation. And it is this intellectual vigor, which we will proudly display for the rest of our lives, that distinguishes our University from its many peers.</p>

<p>However, it begs a long overdue question: How much of this demanding lifestyle can a student, regardless of his mental and physical capabilities, tolerate for several weeks at a time? Outside of winter and spring breaks and perhaps a fortuitous weekend absent of projects, papers and prelims, the academic season is a seemingly unending grind. This notion should prompt us to find a means to relieve our stress without sacrificing our core values. Perhaps it is time to consider implementing stress relief days for the entire University, including the students, faculty and staff, to take a break from work (as they do at MIT). After all, in order to uphold our University’s values, they must first be sustainable.</p>

<p>Second, we must address our mental health programs. When implementing these programs, we cannot ignore the problematic characteristics of those who are depressed: Depression is an illness of mental and physical immobility, depriving its host of almost all motivation. Though we have received countless e-mails and pamphlets encouraging us to take advantage of these counseling resources, how much impact do these passive words have on those who truly need these services?</p>

<p>Although we have numerous organizations offering counseling, they have been taking a passive and reactionary role. We cannot forget that the burden to emerge from depression rests upon the students in need; that is it up to them who must take the initial step to call the Gannett Health hotline, wait patiently to hear instructions from an automated voice and finally press “1” to reach the counseling services. We mustn’t forget that it is the students in need who must climb up the slope and then trek across the quad to find refuge in the Counseling and Psychological Services office on Ho Plaza. It is the students in need who must knock on the door of a resident or faculty adviser, but not before summoning the courage and will to confide in another person.</p>

<p>Therefore, we cannot rely on these counseling services alone. Rather, we must take an active stance. Fortunately, the recent policy to aggressively seek out those in need was an admirable, albeit late, step by the University: A brief and simple reminder from a resident adviser or faculty will make all the difference. And I can only hope that we, the students, will also follow suit by adopting warmer and more open demeanors through the rest of our days here at Cornell. However, depression will have a constant presence on campus and our combined efforts are not only for the short-term.</p>

<p>Finally, we must resist the temptation to become desensitized by these tragedies. It has become common practice to gloss over the proverbial elephant in the room when a suicide occurs. We are quick to write on Facebook walls and call friends and family members. And though our consoling words are naturally sympathetic reactions to these tragedies, they suggest that we perceive suicide as a normal response to our problems — a last resort that we will grudgingly accept after the act is complete.</p>

<p>However, we all know that this implication is far from the truth, that we will never accept suicide as a solution. In fact, students should never even consider it as a response. We must cultivate a campus where suicide has absolutely zero presence. Though it is comforting to reminisce on extinguished relationships, remember the their special traits and revisit fond memories, we have to confront the amorality and indecency of the acts as well.</p>

<p>The tragedies in these past weeks have cruelly forced us to reflect upon our mental health policies. But more importantly, it has reminded us that, during our time here at Cornell, we are one another’s most important support system and it is time we assume our responsibilities. </p>

<p>Steven Zhang is a sophomore in the College of Arts and Sciences. He may be reached at <a href="mailto:szhang@cornellsun.com">szhang@cornellsun.com</a>. The Bigger Picture appears alternate Tuesdays this semester</p>

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<p>Just using MOWC’s post as a jumping off point: Depression is a mental illness. To suggest that as these poor students were planning their deaths that “oh, and besides, I’m at a lower Ivy that no one respects” even entered their minds is absolutely ridiculous.</p>

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<p>^^^ Yes exactly… If a child is unhappy at Cornell for reasons such as weather, level of work, or any other reason than it is time to have a serious talk. The kids are more likely to talk if they do not feel their words will disappoint their parents. Again, please know that I am not suggesting that the recent loss of lives is in any way the result of anything that a parent might have said or did’nt say. Suicide is tragic because there are no easy answers. Once again my heart is with every parent who is suffering the loss of their beautiful sons.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately if you come from a “sunny” area you can underestimate how dreary upper Midwest weather can impact your emotions. I was never a big believer in SAD until I watched one of my kids suffer from it winter after winter after winter. My H and I used to tease him in the winter and call him our “little existentialist.” He is now going to college in a sunnier part of the country and he is a very different person during the winter months. The change is remarkable. It’s not something that “gets” everyone, but I now believe it’s a very real manifestation for some people. YMMV. On the other hand I doubt that SAD is the entire cause for what is happening at Cornell. My heart aches for the parents of these students.</p>