<p>If you look at the number of students at HLS or any law school, then compare them to the career center website data, what do you see? Many people who have no reported, right?</p>
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Yes he does. I don't see how the numbers remaining "pretty stable" quells that concern. With a bigger picture the numbers would be similarly, or more, stable but with a lower average gpa and lsat score.
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<p>The numbers are not going to automatically "lower" when you include such applicants.</p>
<p>At any rate, fine, let us assume that it does not include applicants who decided to apply at least one year after they graduated. Georgetown's career services site does not include such applicants either, but the GPA and LSAT averages for admissions into HLS are still much lower.</p>
<p>Additionally, if we choose not to include non-traditional applicants, one can still draw the conclusion that a certain LSAT and GPA are required for students applying right out of school. So unless you mean to tell me that you are going to take a year off, that nontraditional applicants are not included is insignificant.</p>
<p>That is, unless you mean to argue that one must take a year off if he is to have a chance at HLS. That is pretty ludicrous. Why not just come to Georgetown when you can apply right out of undergraduate school?</p>
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With a bigger picture the numbers would be similarly, or more, stable but with a lower average gpa and lsat score.
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<p>I agree with nspeds there. The career center has a sample of students and a sample average GPA/LSAT. I don't see any reason to believe that increasing the sample size will decrease the scores. We would have to assume that the people who didn't report would have lower scores on average than the people that did. The sample statistics tell us that the total Berkeley admitted pool probably has an average GPA/LSAT in the range that the career center reports. Of course there's a certain chance of error to that claim, but even then we don't know if the averages are higher or lower.</p>
<p>I guess you're reasoning that a bigger sample size will bring the average closer to the average of students from all schools. Intuitively I don't agree with that reasoning, but I don't know enough to be sure.</p>
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Why not just come to Georgetown when you can apply right out of undergraduate school?
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<p>Sorry, change that "when" to a "where."</p>
<p>Face it guys, some students at some schools have a distinct advantage when applying to schools like HLS. That does not mean that one school is better for pre-law preparation than another, or that one school is better than the other, but it simply means that it will be tougher to be admitted at HLS coming out of Cal. You have a grading system that is against you, a lot of competition, and an unforgiving HLS.</p>
<p>I said this earlier: it is much easier to earn an A/A- at a place like Georgetown. The advantages of having a smaller student body are not simply to be had in terms of class-room instruction, for there are also relaxed grading standards. I was joking with a friend the other day: say you have a class of two students. Is the professor going to give one student an A- and the other a B to maintain a B+ average in the class, simply because the former student wrote a slightly worse paper? No. I was in a "one-student class" last spring.</p>
<p>ucbhi: Even if we do agree with that reasoning, it does not help their argument. The numbers are harsh for anyone coming straight from undergrad, then in comparison to, say, Georgetown.</p>
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Georgetown's career services site does not include such applicants either, but the GPA and LSAT averages for admissions into HLS are still much lower.
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Can you link to that data?</p>
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We would have to assume that the people who didn't report would have lower scores on average than the people that did.
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That's assuming that one makes the decision whether or not to share after knowing their LSAT score, etc. We don't know when the decision is made unless someone does and cares to provide evidence. </p>
<p>I still don't see why someone doesn't just email HLS and ask.</p>
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I still don't see why someone doesn't just email HLS and ask.
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<p>...because they will not give you an unambiguous answer. I have spoken to HLS admissions officers on many occasions, and even the one with whom I have regular contact never gives me a clear answer. </p>
<p>Edit: I just read that the GCS includes alumni statistics. Oh well, I still do not think it is enough to bring the GPA average down to a 3.82 for HLS.</p>
<p>And once again... even if we assume that alumni numbers are enough to bring the averages down, there is still a harsh average for students coming straight out of Cal. Adding alumni numbers proves nothing but that taking one or more years off (and doing something substantive) can be beneficial.</p>
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Edit: I just read that the GCS includes alumni statistics. Oh well, I still do not think it is enough to bring the GPA average down to a 3.82 for HLS.
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Yes, they do! Also, notice that there were 120 applicants to HLS; I'm assuming those are complete statistics rather than a limited sub-picture like Berkeley's. </p>
<p>So 120 applicants from Georgetown while Berkeley only has 47 applicants that reported. Of the 47 that reported at Berkeley, 4 got in. Of the 120 from Georgetown, 10 got in. Berkeley's admission percentage is better.</p>
<p>I think what the situation may be is that you choose to report knowing your LSAT and GPA but not knowing which schools you got in to.</p>
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Adding alumni numbers proves nothing but that taking one or more years off (and doing something substantive) can be beneficial.
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No, it just means that many applicants aren't included in the survey.</p>
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Yes, they do! Also, notice that there were 120 applicants to HLS; I'm assuming those are complete statistics rather than a limited sub-picture like Berkeley's.
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<p>No, they are not. When I asked a career counselor for the data in person, she warned me that not all students reported.</p>
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No, it just means that many applicants aren't included in the survey.
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<p>Yes... and that their inclusion means nothing for undergraduates applying straight out of Cal.</p>
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Berkeley's admission percentage is better.
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<p>...and the average GPA and LSAT coming out of Cal?</p>
<p>Much worse.</p>
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No, they are not. When I asked a career counselor for the data in person, she warned me that not all students reported.
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Well it's definitely a standout feature that Georgetown has 120 applicants, while Berkeley has 47. </p>
<p>There is definitely something up with those Berkeley numbers. I think those with high numbers chose to report in advance while others, who ended up getting in, chose not to. Look at the avg. gpa of those who got into Chicago: 4.04. The numbers are too small to come to any conclusions (Chicago's has 27 applicants, Harvard, 47).</p>
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Well it's definitely a standout feature that Georgetown has 120 applicants, while Berkeley has 47.
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<p>Indeed, great! And I knew many of the applicants last year who had a better chance at hell freezing over than being accepted. They reported their numbers too.</p>
<p>In fact, I know many applicants who applied to HLS on a whim, without any expectations. Georgetown's high numbers prove nothing.</p>
<p>Your argument that only students with high numbers choose to submit does not necessarily lead to any conclusion; students who targetted any law school submitted numbers to the career office, and if HLS was on the list, their numbers were also included in the calculations for admissions into HLS.</p>
<p>Also, if youe argument that only students with high numbers are likely to report is true, that means that the students who did not submit were not admitted, since they probably did not have the numbers high enough to be accepted. Including them will probably worsen Cal's average.</p>
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Also, if youe argument that only students with high numbers are likely to report is true, that means that the students who did not submit were not admitted, since they probably did not have the numbers high enough to be accepted.
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No, it means students with lower numbers WHO GOT ACCEPTED are not included, raising the averages.</p>
<p>I have compared the numbers to a few other schools, and it's obvious that the GPA #s in particular are way higher at Berkeley; I think they are high enough to raise a red flag, not showing that you must get a much higher gpa to get into good law schools from Berkeley, but that the numbers are inflated somehow.</p>
<p>Here is the reasoning:
If student A has high numbers -> he reports
If he does not report -> student A does not have high numbers (simply the contraposition)
If the career office's numbers do not include the numbers of students who did not report -> those students do not have high numbers
If student A does not have high numbers -> He can can kiss HYS goodbye
Since the students who did not report do not have high numbers -> they can kiss HYS goodbye</p>
<p>So including them will only lower Cal's statistics for getting students into HLS.</p>
<p>Of course, the premises I included above are not necessary connections (ie. there could be students that have high numbers who do not report), but if you argue that they probably will report (to a (neo-)Bayesian certainty), then it is also probable that including unreported numbers will worsen Cal's picture.</p>
<p>ok now i go to Cal and who honestly goes to the career center which is incredibly far away from campus? not many...</p>
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I think those with high numbers chose to report in advance while others, who ended up getting in, chose not to.
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<p>I am not sure why one would do that... so those with low numbers did not report, but ended up getting in, and that is enough (including the unreported rejectees) to help Cal? Nonsense.</p>
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ok now i go to Cal and who honestly goes to the career center which is incredibly far away from campus? not many..
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<p>Well... enough did... and the numbers remain consistently high from year to year.</p>
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I have compared the numbers to a few other schools, and it's obvious that the GPA #s in particular are way higher at Berkeley;
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<p>Nope. I think UMich's numbers are even worse.</p>
<p>You guys need to separate your "why does Cal have high GPA/LSAT averages" arguments from your "is Cal a good UG school for law" arguments. Or conclude one before doing the other. It's muddling your main points :p</p>
<p>Virginia's numbers are way better. I couldn't find UMich's numbers.</p>