Cornell vs Duke ED 2016?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>It’s unfortunate that individuals with such limited insight and awareness like this can make up an arbitrary ranking in their minds and then try to influence earnest young people in making major life decisions. A lot of people from borderline top schools like this individual’s alma mater are currently trying to establish their reputations as “elite”, so they end up ■■■■■■■■ forums like Cornell’s in a vain attempt to push it down for their own self-serving agenda of making their own degree more valuable. </p>

<p>When a more intelligent and informed person encounters their tactics, the ability to shread their simpleton arguments must make anyone question what they actually accomplished to receive their degree and what it says about the institution that granted it. </p>

<p>In this case, the individual used admit rate as the basis for his fictitious belief system. From that foundation, we must extrapolate that the individual also believes that the University of Chicago is inferior because of its higher acceptance rate. We all know that’s not true and recognize that, especially at schools like Cornell where there are many specialty programs, admit rates and conventional measures of admission do not necessarily apply across the board.</p>

<p>As one example, the architecture school has the lowest average SAT scores in the university, yet is the premiere program in the nation and attracts the top students for that particular field. Not too many people apply for architecture who do not have a specific predisposition for it. </p>

<p>Rest assured, there is absolutely no consensus that Cornell is overall inferior to Brown, UPenn, or Dartmouth, especially considering how many rankings Cornell comes out ahead of all of them. Each school has strengths and weaknesses. Duke’s reputation has risen in recent years, but not enough to dissuade you from considering both. </p>

<p>The significantly broader array of options available at a school like Cornell, if you truly aren’t sure of your path, can be incredibly useful. You will not find the combination of breadth and quality of fields in any other school at this level, anywhere in the country. That’s not to say Duke might not be the better choice for you, but it’s a huge asset for Cornell.</p>

<p>…and I have no idea what the other poster meant by Duke having a more collegiate feeling. Cornell - and Ithaca - are about as quintessential an American college experience as you will ever find.</p>

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<p>I was in a similar situation 3 years back with acceptances from Cornell, Duke and Princeton among other fine schools. Cornell in addition chose me as one of their Presidential Research Scholars as an incoming freshman. Today, I am a premed engineering student at Cornell and very happy with my choice. I have been doing medical research since my freshman year, presented a scientific paper, won both external and internal scholarships and grants that are merit based.</p>

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<p>NYC0205,</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply. Your reply answered many of the questions I had in mind. And, I find it amazing that I have a chance to talk to an MD!!</p>

<p>The thing is I did not know much about finance until this year. I really wish I had known more about it earlier so that I would have prepared myself for internships, SA, and the full time recruiting for banks. I just did not have my stuff together and did not resist my parents’ recommendation that I become a lawyer. (Although I did not know much about what the practice of law would entail) And, I studied for LSAT when I should have been gunning for internships at banks and networking. (much to my misfortune)</p>

<p>Recently, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research and soul searching, and I see myself as the type of person excited to drive deals and be involved in transactions, rather than being involved in contractual sides of the deals. Also, I am finding stories of many lawyers who are disappointed with their career: long hours, boring work, lack of exit options, “up or out” policy of Biglaw firms, and so on. The study of law sounds interesting to me, but if I have a choice, I would rather be an I-banker than a corporate lawyer any day of the week.</p>

<p>I am scheduled to attend my law school next year and I am taking a gap year. That said, I would appreciate your advice on what steps I need to take in order to have a chance at even landing an internship at an i-bank so that I can have a chance to experience finance. Right now, I would rather not go to law school if I can get a position at any bank. But, if I can’t crack it, I think I should proceed to law school and try to switch out to I-bank with some years of Biglaw experience. I heard from some ex-lawyers that many banks would not recruit fresh law school graduates with no work experience. They would expect these lawyers to practice M&A law for several years before trying to switch out.</p>

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<p>The great thing is that you have done well and a fallback option of a top law school is a great way to begin a career. My suggestion would be to hit the Cornell alumni network and see what came up. Contact every major alumni organization and see where it leads. Also use the online database and not be afraid to reach out to people. </p>

<p>The alumni network served me extremely well in the initial years when I had little distinct experience (just another guy crunching models and pitchbooks). I remember that when I started, we had our first layoff within 2 months. It was the Cornell VP who interviewed me that raised his hand to make sure that I kept my spot (unfortunately not everyone was so lucky). When I went to explore for other opportunities after getting bored at the bank, alumni in the seniormost positions would reply to emails, take calls and provide leads. I can’t overstate the range and strength of the Cornell alumni network. You should definitely make use of the resource to the best of your ability. My guess is that if you keep at it, then something will come along. There are so many alumni in positions of influence that your persistence is bound to pay off…even in a difficult environment. Pretty much every finance organization either has a Cornell alum in senior mgmt or has a close relationship with Cornell alum who is a client, investor, etc. These people have tremendous reach and you just have to tap into it. You will also see that there is much more to finance than banking or sales/trading. Hopefully, you can make an educated choice on what you would like to do. </p>

<p>As far as law, if you choose to go to law school, it is always better to do so after a few years of experience, after you really see that you want to be a lawyer. At the same time, law school is a great overall education, particularly for transactional work. In fact, a lot of M&A/restructuring strategy is very much legally driven and it is often ex-lawyers who occupy those senior roles in banks and advisory firms. I think that the JD/MBA is an ideal combo, except that it takes too long for someone who just wants to get an MBA. However, if nothing interesting comes up in the next year, then head off to law school and do the combo because it is just an extra year from the base commitment. Business schools (outside of Harvard and Stanford) are usually very welcoming to law students at their affiliated universities even if they lack work experience. I am sure that you would find a finance or a management consulting position with that combination in hand. Consulting firms in particular just want smart people with advanced degrees, regardless of experience. You would have plenty of time to network and find your niche. It is much easier to switch into finance from consulting than from law. By that point, your interests may well be different as well, so no point in forecasting too far into the future. </p>

<p>I would do everything possible to avoid the path of going into law with the hope of transfer. It is a painful process and most ex-lawyers who did it as mid-level guys (not as partners) wish that they had gone into finance from the start. Your 20s are some of your best years…no reason to waste some of them in a field where you have no real aspirations. Good luck!!!</p>

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<p>Below are the ED acceptance rates for Cornell and Duke:</p>

<p>Cornell:
3,596 applied
1,175 admitted
33% accepted</p>

<p>Duke:
1,537 applied
550 admitted
35% admitted</p>

<p>It would seem that both schools admit a relatively high percentage of ED applicants.</p>

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<p>NYC,</p>

<p>I appreciate your advice. I will make sure to take advantage of networking opportunities of Cornell alumni. Should I shoot a bunch of cold emails introducing me, send my resume, and asking them if I could call them later about some questions I might have about their work? I haven’t tried serious networking yet and I lack those skills and wonder what kind of approach and outline would be effective while not annoying the heck out of people.</p>

<p>I agree with your point that I should seek to avoid law school. I will gun hard for any finance job, and if I can land anything, I will effectively put the idea of law school to rest. Right now, I plan on attending law school only if I can’t get something I want by next year. </p>

<p>Also, I will look into MBA/JD option as you suggested. My impression was that top MBA programs would accept people with several years of corporate experiences, which I lack as of now. Hence, I doubt I can get into a top program, or the MBA program at the university of my law school. If I can’t get MBA, I will make sure to get a top Wall St law firm job doing transactional work so that I can prepare my switch into I-banking smoothly. I heard that 2-3 years into M&A law practice is the sweet spot for lateraling out, since by then, you would have a decent idea of how deals are structured and how deals get done. And, I am thinking, if I can’t land a finance job now and can’t get into a top MBA/JD program in near future, I am afraid that my best way around it is to attend the top law school I got into. I know that it is not the most effective way to go around it, but, there may not be other plausible options for me other than that. </p>

<p>Or, what do you think of getting a non-finance job right now (in case I don’t land a decent finance gig), working several years, get top 10 MBA, and then going for IB associate positions?? I am not familiar with MBA recruiting for IB. Do banks, at top MBA programs, still hire people who did not have pre-MBA finance work experience?</p>

<p>Another question I forgot to ask you is what happens to those associates at Bulge Bracket who don’t get promoted to VP? Are they allowed to stay at their banks as associates, or are they expected to leave the firm?</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>I think you should just write to as many people as possible. Explain where you are and that you would like to speak with them to better understand your options. Everyone that I know from Cornell has always been very forthcoming to students and young alumni, so you certainly should not hesitate. The best way to reach out to people is via email. </p>

<p>If for some reason you can’t get a finance position, then see if there are options in a top management consulting firm (US and abroad). If you have any kind of ethnic background, then this is a good time to leverage it. If you got into a top law school, then top consulting firms should want to talk to you as they are very academically oriented. If you get a position that you like then work there for a few years and then see what is around. B-school is always an option, but there may be some other things that interest you at that point and make more sense. </p>

<p>I would not drop law school for a middling business job such as IT consulting (Accenture, Deloitte) or some management trainee job a Fortune 500 unless it is a very unique and selective program. Business is about credibility and going to a top law school gives you three years to network around with a great ticket in hand to open doors. Top level finance and consulting positions provide similar credibility. Thus, even if you lack experience, you are better off entering the world from a top law school rather than a nondescript job. Also, in regard to law school, you should go talk to the JD/MBA program coordinator at the school and see how the process works for people with little experience. I met some JD/MBA kids at my MBA program and several of them were straight out of school. There is often a much friendlier treatment for JD applicants from the same university, particularly since they usually have stronger academic credentials than the average MBA student. </p>

<p>If you wind up going to JD only, then yes, give it no more than 1-2 years and get the hell out of law. Even if you lose 1 year and start as a 1st year associate, then who cares. It is a relatively small price to pay. Make sure that you take enough finance courses while in law school and also consider doing something like a CFA to bolster your knowledge. It is one thing to understand enough finance to just run a model (that is very simple). It is a whole different story to attain an integrated view of corporate finance, accounting, asset valuation, currencies, etc. That is the biggest weakness that I often see in former lawyers and it is something that you should try to fortify while you can.</p>

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<p>I think I am quite qualified as I made the decision to attend Cornell over Duke after being accepted at both places and had to decide between them both. First off, I was deferred ED from Cornell and then decided to give other schools a short and visited Cornell and Duke and talked to various alumni. Both are very different campuses, but I enjoyed both equally. What eventually won me over was reputation and quality programs. What people said before is extremely correct in that the bottom 30% or so of Cornell are more on track of colleges that are a tier lower thanks to our contract colleges (I moved to a contract college after being accepted, so I can’t complain too much.) However, Cornell’s reputation clearly trumps Dukes in the NYC area and most of America.</p>

<p>I don’t know why the rumor that pre-med is extremely cut-throat still exists. I have various friends with 3.7+ gpas that are pre-med that party every night and are the most relaxed people you will ever meet. It certainly helps that a strong percentage of science students are in the contract colleges (and often are of lower academic quality), yet still shares a very strong reputation. I would choose Cornell if I was pre-med practically for this reason alone (though I love every part of the school).</p>

<p>That said, Cornell and Duke attract similar students. It’s usually strong split between the rich/old money/******bags and more nerdy/intellectual students. The latter seem less happy I’ve noticed.</p>

<p>I also disagree that you shouldn’t apply ED if you are split. You have much less of a chance of getting into either if you wait, so just try to make your decision as soon as possible and you will be happier.</p>

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<p>oh, one more important thing…Duke females are more attractive than Cornell females (no offense my lovely colleagues, there are still diamonds in the rough!)</p>

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<p>NYC,</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your detailed and comprehensive advice. I feel proud to have successful Cornell alums like you!</p>

<p>As for networking, when I have emailed a Cornell alum banker several times and let him know of my existence, should I ask if I can meet him in person? Or, do you think I should go ahead and ask him to reach out to his contacts within finance and help me out through email without meeting him in person?</p>

<p>It is good to hear that JD/MBA option may be within grasp. I will seriously look into it and try to get into the MBA program at my law school. If it works out, it will be really great and I can go ahead with banking straight out. </p>

<p>As for management consulting, there seems to be some opinion flowing around, that unless you get top shop like Mck, Bain, or BCG, you are likely to be wasting your time and it will be hard to switch out to top finance later on. As you mentioned, I will stick with law school unless I land a job that can position me well for higher finance. And, I plan to do law only 1-2 years max before lateraling out. </p>

<p>Before doing research, I had no clue that law firm is such a dreaded work environment among many attorneys and the attrition rate there is so high that it is ridiculous. I honestly have no clue why so many kids aspire to become lawyers. </p>

<p>One bright side of things is that it is still very doable, it seems, that I can switch out to banking from law. I am so relieved that this option is realistic for my future. Thank you so much for all your advice so far, they have been very helpful. I will PM you if I have any further questions about the career. Thanks.</p>

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<p>The best way to ask for someone’s time is to give them the option of speaking on the phone, or if you live in the area, meeting them for a coffee. If this is an area that you want to pursue, then try to immerse yourself in it (read WSJ for starters) as much as possible. Everyone can see if you are into it or just going through the motions. </p>

<p>When you talk to bankers, make sure that you emphasize interest specifically in banking and never mention any other occupation (even financial stuff like equity research or god forbid trading - PE is ok but that is down the line). They are rather religious about the fact that any junior banker should only want to be in this specific field (part of the reason is that the hours and the work environment suck so badly that only the most dedicated person should be willing to put up with this crap). </p>

<p>Consultants are usually much more relaxed and if you say that you are talking to banks, they are not going to respond as if you are cheating on them (bankers will). They see their jobs in a much more detached manner. It is understood that you will be gone in 2 years for whatever job or school, so everyone is supercool with it and does not expect any artificial devotion. Also, consultants pride themselves on being smart. Bankers generally pride themselves on being aggressive and hardworking. The reason is simple evolution. Banks mostly make money on transactions (e.g. need to hunt for business) while consultants have a much more steady stream of revenue (operational studies, strategic reviews, etc.) that is much less dependent on any specific event. </p>

<p>It is always easiest to direct your questions in a general way about the industry and ask their suggestions on how to break into it. They will volunteer to go the extra mile if they feel that they are in position to do so. Having done this myself, the best suggestion I can give you is just to be genuine and pleasant. There is no need to come across like Gordon Gekko Jr. This industry is full of highly damaged people, and no one wants to help another American Psycho wannabe. Alumni meetings are the most relaxed interaction that you will find in finance, so just be honest and courteous and people will be only too happy to help. We have all been through this meat grinder. </p>

<p>As far as consulting, yes, M/B/B are definitely the top 3 brands out there with Oliver Wyman (old Mercer), Monitor and Booz strategy group also quite strong. The perceptoin differences between them are like between HYP and the second tier that follows (e.g. clear drop for sure but still very highly respected, draw 1st class people, and open many doors). There are also some very strong specialty firms like First Manhattan Consulting Group (run by a Cornell guy who was always very rah rah about Cornell) that may offer a very good experience. Those firms are very well known in their niches (First Manhattan is in financial services for instance) and may offer an experience and exit options that are superior to M/B/B where the range of outcomes is quite wide. In general though, yes, you should only start out at a consulting firm with some clear distinction in the field. At this stage of your career you should be learning from people who know what they are doing. Later on, once you can add some real value on your own, the calculus changes. </p>

<p>My one suggestion through the first couple years is to just to keep your eyes wide open and never stop thinking. There is a huge temptation to keep progressing on “the track” and while that makes sense for the first few years to understand how stuff works, it is always good to know how you are using this experience. In every firm of “legend” such as Goldman, Blackstone, etc., there is a handful of people that are making big money. The rest are there just to execute the plan. There are many small, non-descript firms in NY that are well below the radar screen…where the principals make multiples of what a PMD at Goldman or Blackstone makes…doing something that is way off the radar screen and where they actually control the business. That’s the creativity that people find fulfilling and why many senior guys at large financial firms are highly frustrated and bored (remember that when you talk to them). The machine life is a good way to start and set your feet, but I would not recommend it for more than that.</p>

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<p>Skittles,</p>

<p>Thought I’d add to the thread since I’m a med student and went to Cornell undergrad. A few erroneous things on here:</p>

<p>The premed programs at Duke and Cornell are going to be viewed the same by any med school, some idea of specific premed rankings is silly. Either one will be viewed as a strong program.</p>

<p>Having a decent name (again, either school) will help with the med school app process. Probably 50% of my interviewers had a positive comment to say about Cornell, and I certainly got the vibe at a few top places that I was only invited because of undergrad name + MCAT (GPA was ok but nothing amazing). Would probably be the same for Duke</p>

<p>The idea that Cornell grads get an auto-invite to Cornell med is def false… Cornell med is usually high on the list of many Cornell undergrads due to the combination of location (UES) + reputation and, while they do take a good amount of Cornell undergrads, its very hard to get in. I did not get an interview there but several of my friends who were rockstar applicants did. Not sure about the setup at Duke, but I would not choose at undergrad based on its ability to maybe get you into the corresponding med school. </p>

<p>As far as the culture / social scene goes, Cornell has a good Greek life / bar scene if you are into that. Duke obviously has better sports, but that wasn’t really high on my list of things I cared about in a college. Also in spring / summer lots of awesome outdoors stuff to do in Ithaca.</p>

<p>As for the seasons, I’d say:
Fall - standard for northeast
Winter - cold and snowy
Spring and Summer - beautiful</p>

<p>I stayed in Ithaca most of the summers I was there partially because I enjoyed the weather so much. Winters don’t really bother me (I grew up in the northeast) so for me it was a great tradeoff. Hope this helps!</p>

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<p>Your SAT I need some work,other than that you stats look good.Apply to both, i do like Duke a little better.</p>

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<p>All college rankings, including USNWR, have methodological weaknesses; but if you are drawn to the rankings game, there are other noteworthy evaluators extant in addition to USNWR. Another prominent one is the ARWU Academic Ranking of World Universities:</p>

<p>ARWU ranks Cornell 12th in the World listings, while Duke sits at 35th.</p>

<p>ARWU ranks Cornell 10th in North America, while Duke lands at 27th.</p>

<p>[Academic</a> Ranking of World Universities - ARWU](<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp][b]Academic”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp)</p>

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<p>*Disregarding ivy league camaraderie I would advice the OP to attend Duke simply because it pays a tremendous amount of emphasis on its undergraduate program more so than Cornell does in my opinion. *</p>

<p>Not to be offensive, but at least back up your claims.</p>

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<p>Comparing apples to apples, Cornell’s CAS is one of the smallest, affording its students an unusually intimate setting. Athough Cornell has 14,000 undergrads, only 4,000 belong to the CAS. The remaining students attend entirely separate colleges, such as Agriculture, Architecture, Engineering, Hotel Management, Human Ecology and Industrial and Labor Relations.</p>

<p>Furthermore, the USNWR is not to be trusted. In fact, Cornell’s reputational scores are consitantly higher than Duke’s. </p>

<p>Finally, contrary to what lesdiablesbleus (or Columbiaorduke, or penngraduate or puglacious or dartmouthman or Brownliberal or whatever other identity that twisted schizophrenic may use) said above, it is in fact Cornell that wins the crossadmit war with Duke, not the other way around.</p>

<p>Bottom line, both schools are excellent. If one is to apply ED, one should choose the schools that suits them better, particulary when one considers that the two universities have roughly identical ED admissions stats.</p>

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<p>Haha. He deleted his post; or someone else did.</p>

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<p>NYC,</p>

<p>Thanks for all your insight into the industry. I honestly wish I know you in person. You would be a great mentor!</p>

<p>Just forgot to mention, but, what range of positions of Cornell alums should I target for networking? I am thinking I should not try to contact SVP or MD level alums because they are way too high up… Maybe I should go for reaching out to associate/VP level of alums?? </p>

<p>I am well aware that there is a lot of grind, hard work, and long hours involved with banking jobs. Part of me is actually fascinated by that aspect. I am willing to work hard to build my skills and banking industry would be rewarding for me for a long-term career prospect. I am excited about the prospect of building all important skills and connections in banking. For banking, I like the fact that the job, as you move up the ladder, requires the person to grow his intellect, work ethic, managerial skills, and people skills all intertwined. Besides, in banking, if you are good and hard working, there is a prospect of promotion, financial reward, and fulfilling career satisfaction.</p>

<p>In law, pretty much most of all jobs are dead-ends. Law firms don’t give you any incentives to work harder. They just kick you out of the industry after 5-6 years into starting. If associates don’t make partner, these associates end up in 15-men mediocre law firm with extremely limited career upshot and lack of interesting cases and businesses to handle. And, the hours and pressure within NY law firms are horrible. I am fine with working hard, but this limited career prospect within the field of legal field is pretty demoralizing and I frankly want to use law not as a career, but merely as a stepping stone for me to lateral to high finance. </p>

<p>As you said, I would like to build skills and networks at a Bulge Bracket Associate position, then look for even more exciting opportunities down the road. I would LOVE to work at a respectable boutique shop that allows me to see a stronger prospect of career upshot, more creativity, and less rigidity so that I can explore and execute my interests and plans more smoothly. </p>

<p>Nowadays, I am more determined than ever. In case I go to law school, I am prepared to work my butt off to make sure that I land a top Wall St M&A shop. I am going to be networking hard with your advice in mind. I am just gonna do whatever it takes to snag that IB Associate banking position 5-6 years from now. Right now, I would give up my left nut for a job like M/B/B or top banking analyst gig, but, I suspect I am not smart enough and good enough for those top jobs right now… </p>

<p>Again, I really appreciate your insight into the industry. And, I really wish that I could get to know a person like you in real life to get more direct advice, share more conversations, and get more mentoring. No wonder you are an MD!!</p>

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<p>Cornell’s prestige far outweighs most of the other Ivies based on name recognition internationally and most international rankings systems and systems in general. U.S. News is one of the few rankings systems to have nearly every Ivy ranked “higher” than Cornell. Get over yourselves.</p>

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<p>If you got into a top law school, then there is no question that you are “smarter” than many banking analysts and consultants. It is just a question of being persistent and getting into the flow of the industry, both on being aware of what is going on and meeting people. I actually think that MDs may be even more willing to help than VPs/Associates, because perhaps they are more secure about their overall positoin and they are probably feeling nostalgic for the school days (certainly applies to me anyway:)). </p>

<p>My one bit of advice is that everyone feels and performs better when there is some structure about the day. Thus, I would suggest finding some sort of finance-related activity as quickly as possible. For instance, Cornell has some excellent faculty in Johnson and Dyson who I am sure are always looking for research assistants. It is much better to work with them and also participate in other finance-related activities at the school such as investment clubs and other stuff rather than being removed from it all. You can always come down to the city to network on certain days (it is a quick ride). Also, use the alumni network of your law school (as long as you are accepted, then you should be able to get some access) to go talk to people. Bottom line is that you need to find a way to fill up each of your days with productive stuff. Then, everything else will fall into line and you won’t look back. You have done very well to date and there is no reason to believe that this will not continue. Good luck!!!</p>