Cornell vs UPenn For Computer Science 2018

College Search & Selection
1

Hello everyone,
I was accepted into both Cornell (engineering school) and the University of Pennsylvania (engineering school) for computer science. I need help in deciding which school I should attend. This is going to be a relatively long post and I do appreciate any input from anyone who has insight on either. I am somewhat split 50/50 right now between the two.

I know technically Cornell has a better engineering and thus better CS program compared with Penn, however I feel like my education will be great at either (please tell me if you disagree).

I am mainly interested in pursuing artificial intelligence as a subcategory of computer science and I know Cornell has wider variety of classes like this, but if I went to Penn I would be very interested in minoring in something business related. And I do like that Penn is somewhat more prestigious than Cornell.

First what I do not care about:
-Greek Life - I do not want to join Greek Life, so it is of little importance to me
-Cost - Both have amazing financial aid and I would have very low debt attending either
-Parties - I want social life, through clubs and hanging out with friends, but I am not a party boy

What I do care about (in no particular order):
-Political Atmosphere - I am currently president of my schoolā€™s Republicans Club, and I am a strong conservative, though I am not an obnoxious one. I know higher education tends to lean left, and I am fine with that, but I do not want to be ostracized. I am also interested in joining a conservative club. I havenā€™t heard much about political atmosphere on either campus, though I have heard rumors that Penn might be more conservative friendly thanks to its business school.

-Setting - I am from a small southern California suburb. As lame as it might sound, I like living in the suburbs: theyā€™re nice, clean, and safe, but still relatively close enough to visit cities, though I generally donā€™t like cities. I was scared that Penn might be too urban, but I was pleasantly surprised by its immediate area. West Phildadelphia did not seem too crowded, and I felt relatively safe in the area. Perhaps I feel this way because I was expecting the worst or maybe because comparing other cities to LA is unfair.
I will be visiting Cornell very soon. From what I know, it is surrounded by beautiful nature, but somewhat isolated. I like nature, but I am unsure about the isolated part. Any comments on either universityā€™s location would be appreciated.

-Weather - As I mentioned, I am from SoCal. I know both places will be cold, and I know Cornell will be the coldest. Any other warm weather people who thrived at Cornell out there? Or is it truly as miserable as it sounds?

-Food- I ate at Pennā€™s 1920 Commons and I was unimpressed. The food was very mediocre, one thing I ate was pretty bad. I like the idea of being able to eat at the various choices off campus, but as a college student will that be a rare occurrence. I was also off put by a current studentā€™s remark that almost 50% get off of the universityā€™s meal plan. Is the food really that bad, or was it just the choices I chose to eat? How difficult is it to survive outside of the universityā€™s meal plan and is that really better eating?
Cornell supposedly has very good food.

-Cutthroat vs competitive - I see both schools being described as competitive. I am fine with that. What I do not want is a cutthroat environment, wherein students actively try to disadvantage others so they get the better grade. Obviously, people exist like this everywhere, but I do not want a culture of it.

-Difficulty - Obviously, both schools are going to be very difficult. However, I would rather not have grade deflation. Still, that may be hard to avoid, I know.

-Social Atmosphere - I do not care about Greek Life, but I want to be able to go out and meet new friends.

-Study Abroad - I would like to study abroad, if possible. This isnā€™t a deal breaker for me, though.

-Housing - I want good housing and I know very little about either schools in this respect. This will be a big factor in my decision. At Penn I was surprised to hear (correct me if I am wrong) that almost 40% of upperclassmen choose to live off campus. Is this just to save money or because the Penn dorms suck or are there simply better options off campus? How do the two colleges compare? Also, how is dorm life in relation to social atmosphere?

Please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors-I typed this very quickly. Sorry this post might seem very specific to me, but usually when I try to find information about these two colleges compared people answer ā€œthe best college is the one that is the best fit for you.ā€ Which do you think would be a best fit for me?

2

FYI, Cornell upperclassmen are not guaranteed on campus housing, and most of them do not live on campus.
The ā€œgoodā€ ness of off-campus housing likely depends on how much you are willing to pay. There have been newer housing units that have gone up, while for those living at some of the older Collegetown dwellings ā€œslumā€ may be an upgrade.
Of course many people have great times in those ā€œsub-slumsā€ but thatā€™s another matter.

When students start living off campus they usually wind up in housing that has access to kitchen facilities. For that reason, and since they are no longer living as close to most of the campus dining halls, most of those students go off the meal plan, or take a modified plan that allows them to eat some meals while they are on campus.

While there is a large fraternity presence, the majority of students are not in fraternities. For all those non-frat students, like in real life outside of college, oneā€™s social life is what you make it to be. Most people find their cohort of like-minded people to hang out with, and proceed from there. A lot of that sorting takes place in the dorms, and extracurriculars I suppose too.

Based on what Iā€™ve been told & have read, your best assumption is no difference in academic difficulty, ā€œcutthroatā€ etc.

Unless this has changed, engineering students can take a minor at Dyson.

The universityā€™s student population draws heavily from the Northeast and New York specifically. Predominant political views follow accordingly. Though there are dissenting opinions, and organizations. Probably more of them than at some other places.

There are plenty of students there from California. Hopefully most learn to toughen up, deal with the winters, and get on with things. Among past CC posters, I recall some ā€œsatisfied customersā€ from there. However, currently there are a few very vocal obviously dissatisfied customers posting here about this(over and over again). So apparently not everyone acclimates.

Small school in a small town can indeed be a problem. However Cornell is not a small school.
Most people find plenty to do, most of the time. Ithaca is consistently rated among the best college towns. Ithaca is among the most liberal cities in the United States, much moreso than the university population.

3

Hereā€™s are a few thoughts of things Iā€™m aware of:

  • Grading/Classes - I believe Grading will be tougher at Cornell especially in specific schools. I'm not sure how Cornell works but I don't believe it's hard to take classes from different colleges at UPenn so if you are CS and want to take Wharton classes it's not a big issue. @Penn95 can say more to that than I could.
  • Food - My D17 spent a few weeks in the Summer at UPenn and thought the food was bad. She's pretty spoiled as far as food goes and isn't too impressed with Princeton but thinks it's much better than UPenn. You could probably eat better and cheaper off of the meal plan at UPenn as there are lots of options including large number of food trucks. Please note that there are lots of high quality food trucks serving a variety of ethnic foods at a great price so don't let the term 'food truck' deter you if you are not acquainted with modern day food trucks.
  • Housing - Housing is only guaranteed for Freshman at UPenn. There are lots of off-campus options though a lot of the newer buildings will be pretty expensive as they market them as luxury for the kids that come from wealthier homes at UPenn/Drexel (Drexel sits right beside UPenn). Cheaper housing would be found going further west but as you go west you'll start to experience more of the Urban environment that you didn't notice as much on campus.
4

Go to Penn and hang out with your fellow Rs at Wharton. You sound a little snow-flaky and Ithaca is not the right town for you. Ithaca leans heavily left although the rural area outside Ithaca is not. You will see a lot of anti-Cuomo signs up everywhere. Ithaca is a spot of Blue in a sea of Red. Take a look at the last election map for NY.

Academically is probably a wash, although Cornell is tougher in the engineering school although Penn is not easy.

Philly is going to be easier for travel to the coast. Ithaca is a pain since it is pretty remote. I drive there from NYC, but I suppose you could fly into Syracuse and bus it from there.

Good luck, there really is not a bad choice if they are both affordable.

5

Congratulations on your acceptances! I canā€™t comment on CS in particular, but as a Cornell alum with a daugher currently in engineering there, I can give you a few bits of info.

Yes, Cornell can be cold, but not as cold as the midwest. I think people feel it more because at Cornell you are outside a lot. The walk from the freshman dorms to the engineering quad can take 15-20 minutes, so if the weather is poor, you need to prepare, espcially if you are going back and forth several times a day. The general uniform for most of the year (which hasnā€™t changed in the 25 years since I graduated) is jeans, Cornell sweatshirt, Timberland boots, and a parka. I laughed when I saw my daughter headed back to school from spring break wearing the exact same outfit I wore most days at Cornell. We are having an unusually cold spring here in the northeast, so if may still feel like winter when you visit. Itā€™s hard to beat the finger lakes region of NY for natural beauty. The state parks in the area are spectacular.

Regarding isolation, I guess itā€™s all relative. Cornell is a campus of 20,000 students in a city of 30,000 residents next to another campus of 6500 students. Sure, itā€™s not NYC or Philadelphia, but you can usually find anything you need there. Coming from CA, my main concern would be transportation. Can you get a direct flight out of Syracuse or do you have to take the bus to NYC? Btw, there are several nonstop buses every day direct from campus to NYC.

The food at Cornell is awesome. My daughter raves about it, especially the west campus dining halls, which are open to everyone, even if you donā€™t live on west. The north campus dining facilities are ok too. The Risley dining hall is 100% gluten free and I heard that itā€™s fantastic - tons of fresh fruit and veggies there. Cornell even makes itā€™s own ice cream from milk from its own cows - try to go to the Dairy Bar when you visit to sample some of it. Off-campus dining in Collegetown is pretty bad. My D says ā€œthatā€™s where you go to get food poisoningā€. An exception to that is CTB (Collegetown Bagels), an upscale deli that is one of my favorite spots on earth. Downtown Ithaca has some great restaurants, but you have to take a bus or walk a really long way down (and then back up) a big hill.

Housing is hit or miss. Freshmen donā€™t get to choose their dorm, so you get what you get. All freshman are housed together on north campus. You can specify double, triple, etc. and co-ed or single sex, but you arenā€™t even guaranteed that. My D requested co-ed and got the all-girls dorm, which is pretty bad. The building is architecturally beautiful, but she is in a high floor walk-up in a double that was meant to be a single. There are 2 electrical outlets in the entire room, and they are plagued by bats and floods from overflowing gutters. There are some beautiful new dorms but only the lucky few get them. There was an article in the NY Times a few years back about the worst college dorms in the country. One was at Cornell, and one was at Penn! The housing lottery for sophomores is brutal. My D is stuck in one of the older dorms again next year, so will be dealing with the same issues as this year. Hopefully the room will be a little bigger. Nevertheless, she absolutely loves Cornell and is having the time of her life.

Regarding off-campus housing, Cornell guarantees housing for freshmen and sophomores, but not juniors or seniors. Living off-campus is fine though. Most upperclassmen get apartments or houses in Collegetown, which is right next to the engineering quad. After a couple of years in the dorms, most people are ready for their own bedroom and a kitchen.

Greek life is a big presence at Cornell, but the school is so big that it is absolutely not necessary to participate. My D did not rush and has a full social life among her friends and her extracurricular activities. I did rush and enjoyed it, but felt that sorority life took a lot of time. I always wonder about all of the things I could have done at Cornell had I avoided greek life.

Study abroad in engineering can be done, but requires a lot of planning right from the start. You may need to stay at Cornell for a summer to take some of the requirements if your study abroad program doesnā€™t offer the required classes. Engineering has a very strict sequence that has to be followed in the proper order. If you have a ton of AP credit, that will help.

I donā€™t really understand what people mean by ā€œgrade deflationā€. Most of my Dā€™s classes are curved to B, which in many cases means that their actual grades are inflated to meet the curve.

The Gates CS building at Cornell is so impressive- you should definitely explore it when you visit.

Good luck with your decision - I donā€™t think you can go wrong either way.

6

Penn is more prestigious than Cornell? In what universe? Wharton is very prestigious in Wall Street and Fortune 500 type companies. But you will not be getting your degree from Wharton. Cornell and Penn are equally prestigious.

Cornellā€™s CS department is exceptional, while Pennā€™s is excellent. As you figured out, there will be no real difference at the undergraduate level. And when it comes to professional placement, both will be great.

Both are going to be tough academically, both have great study abroad programs, and both have large Greek life that dominate social life on campus.

In short, they are both about the same. The main difference is setting. Penn is in a large and historic city while Cornell is in a very nice college town.

I would go for the cheaper option if that is an option and concernā€¦and if not, just go with your gut.

7

Some schools may have a formal policy that restricts the percentage of Aā€™s that can be given in a class. Princeton had formal grade deflation until 2014 and only up to 35% of the students in a class could obtain an A. Iā€™m not aware of any schools that still have a grade deflation policy.

Curving a class to a B may not be grade deflation but a 3.0 is well below the average grade at just about any college nowadays. The average GPA at Cornell is probably like 3.5.

8

I wouldnā€™t be so confident about the costs until you do the financial aid package. What comes back will tell you which school to attend. Those packages vary widely!

9

@rain19, congratulation on the two great choices; and kudos to your courage of being an unapologetic Republican in a sea of liberal students.

My son is very similar to you, as being conservative in the suburb of a very liberal city and aspiring to study Computer Science/Artificial Intelligence. We visited both schools. He didnā€™t like UPennā€™s surroundings at all, and Wharton was the only bright spot on campus. The Engineering and CS buildings was banished to a corner across the street from main campus. Although the tour didnā€™t take us into the building, it looks out dated from outside. Son begged me to leave before we even finished the tour. Cornell, although remote from major cities, is a town to itself. The campus is spacious and beautiful. The CS building is new and gorgeous, with the #6 US News ranking in both general CS and AI specialty to match. If heā€™s in your shoes, no question about which one to choose, not even close.

10

Not ā€œanyā€ college, but ā€œany highly selective collegeā€ (like Cornell or Penn).

http://www.gradeinflation.com/ has Cornell at 3.36 in 2006 and Penn at 3.44 in 2015.

But many less selective schools, like non-flagship state universities listed there, have average grades below 3.0.

11

If your goal is to work at an engineering firm and to be an engineer, then Cornell may make more sense. However, many people go to college to explore their interests and then change their mind. So, if you are like many college students who may want to switch to another discipline, I think Penn is a better choice. Yes, Cornell produces some fine research. So does UC Berk and UMichigan but that shouldnā€™t be the deciding factor. Penn for undergrad is a ā€˜strongerā€™ option than Cornell despite what others are saying. Its reputation on Wall Street and among educated people is slightly higher than that of Cornell - thatā€™s just the simple truth. I donā€™t want to start a debate here but research output doesnā€™t necessarily mean a stronger school at the college level. If that were the case at the undergrad level, then UCLA would be a ā€˜strongerā€™ school than Dartmouth and similarly, UC Berk would arguably be stronger than any school (excluding HYPSM). This defies logic. You need to follow your gut and do what is best for you. If it were me and I wanted to keep my options open, Iā€™d choose Penn.

12

Both schools will give you an excellent education.

In general, Penn students tend to have broader interests, and Cornell students tend to be more focused on their primary discipline.

For example, many Penn CS students often add a minor in mathematics or Stats, and a ometimes both.

I think Penn CS students are more likely to take a job in investments, or data science compared to Cornellians.

The major city vs rural setting is probably the biggest difference.

13

Re # 11: ā€œn general, Penn students tend to have broader interests, and Cornell students tend to be more focused on their primary discipline.ā€

???
From reading on CC, Penn seems to play up the notion that students can take courses at its different colleges. Which, reading between the lines really means they are marketing that students not at Wharton can take course at Wharton. IMO.

But Cornell students have that ability too, for as long as Iā€™ve been associated with the school.
They donā€™t market it I guess because they donā€™t think itā€™s a big deal, or anything special.
I took courses in three of its different colleges when I attended. My daughter took courses in four of them, at least. The specialty colleges extend the range of available offerings beyond the liberal arts, often into more applied areas.

I donā€™t know what your basis is for posting that a Penn CAS student has wider interest than a Cornell CAS student, for example. Does Penn not have any major requirements, like Brown?? First Iā€™ve heard of that.

14

It may be true though that Cornell has more required courses in the engineering college, if Cornell COE has requirements derived from the need to satisfy ABET requirements in most of its majors but Penn COE has a non-ABET track that is looser. That is possible. OP should investigate required courses/requirements at each program under consideration. If Cornell COE has more in-college requirements, then students could be deemed to be ā€œmore focused on their primary disciplineā€ of necessity, for that reason. At that college of the university.

15

@rain19 when you decide, please let us know which one are you matriculating.

16

ā€œI donā€™t know what your basis is for posting that a Penn CAS student has wider interest than a Cornell CAS student, for example. Does Penn not have any major requirements, like Brown?? First Iā€™ve heard of that.ā€

I know both schools very well. Penn engineering students are unusually likely to be studying engineering and also something else. It is a thing at Penn compared to almost anywhere else.

I think Cornell is an amazing school. The OP will get an amazing education at either school. The differences are more about fit for the student.

17

ā€œPenn for undergrad is a ā€˜strongerā€™ option than Cornell despite what others are saying. Its reputation on Wall Street and among educated people is slightly higher than that of Cornell - thatā€™s just the simple truth.ā€

Not really. Most educated people do not differentiate between those two universities. What does that say about you? Wharton and Wall Street have an undeniably strong connection. Beyond that, your statement is wrong in every sense of the word.

18

And in silicon valley, educated people prefer Cornell for engineering and CS. Most of the Penn grads here are from Wharton mba program.

19

The CS salaries are very similar.

Cornell is reporting an average 2017 starting salary of $107,895.
Penn is reporting an average 2016 starting salary of 104,846.

Again, both schools are getting impressive results.

20

Iā€™d choose Penn because the school is very industry-oriented, and thereā€™s a pre-professional culture without the school being too stressful, as Iā€™ve heard Cornell engineering is. Penn will also allow you to take Wharton classes, which will be a huge benefit and attractive to employers looking at over hundreds of similarly competitive candidates.